Discover how an employment lawyer built a seven-figure practice not by “working the room,” but by being radically authentic, hyper-generous, and unforgettable in her relationships. This episode breaks down how to turn clients, competitors, and even adversaries into your most loyal referral sources.
In this episode, Steve Fretzin and Randi Cohen discuss:
- Non-traditional path from prosecutor to employment law partner
- Forming and growing a boutique firm through partnership
- Authentic, curiosity-driven networking (not “working the room”)
- Turning clients, competitors, and adversaries into referral sources
- Overcoming imposter syndrome and trusting your own skills
Key Takeaways:
- Business development becomes much easier when you stop “networking” and instead focus on being genuinely curious about people’s lives, needs, and goals.
- Long-term success often comes from leading with generosity—connecting others, sharing referrals, and helping even when there’s nothing immediate in it for you.
- The most valuable relationships are built over time through repeated touchpoints, shared experiences, and small acts of follow-up and care.
- How you handle billing and money can either cement trust or destroy it; protecting relationships is far more valuable than squeezing every last 0.2 from a time entry.
- Confidence is often forged in scary, high-stakes cases—learning to push through imposter syndrome and rely on your preparation and judgment is a pivotal professional shift.
“My entire approach to networking is not to think of it as networking. It’s just authenticity.” — Randi Cohen
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About Randi Cohen: Randi M. Cohen, Esq. is a labor and employment counselor and litigator at Kalmanson Cohen PLLC with nearly 20 years of experience representing individuals and businesses. Focused on practical, personalized problem-solving, she specializes in resolving workplace issues through strategic counseling and negotiation, while maintaining a formidable litigation practice in federal, state, and administrative tribunals across New York, New Jersey, and Pennsylvania when necessary. Widely sought after by small-to-medium businesses and individuals alike, Randi is an active author and member of the American Bar Association and the New York City Bar Association. Recognized as a New York Metro Super Lawyer, she holds a J.D., cum laude, from New York Law School and a B.A. from Muhlenberg College.
Connect with Randi Cohen:
Website: https://kalmansoncohen.com/
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/randimcohen-employmentlawyer/
Connect with Steve Fretzin:
LinkedIn: Steve Fretzin
Twitter: @stevefretzin
Instagram: @fretzinsteve
Facebook: Fretzin, Inc.
Website: Fretzin.com
Email: [email protected]
Book: Legal Business Development Isn’t Rocket Science and more!
YouTube: Steve Fretzin
Call Steve directly at 847-602-6911
Audio production by Turnkey Podcast Productions. You’re the expert. Your podcast will prove it.
FULL TRANSCRIPT
Steve Fretzin [00:00]
Hey everybody! Before we get to the show, just want to remind you that the Be That Lawyer community is up and running and rock and rolling. We have a lot of amazing business developer and rainmaking attorneys in there. We’ve got incredible content, courses, live events, and all kinds of ways to help you to be that lawyer. Check it out today at bethatlawyer.com/community. And other than that, please enjoy the show.
Narrator [00:29]
You’re listening to Be That Lawyer: Life-Changing Strategies and Resources for Growing a Successful Law Practice. Each episode, your host, author, and lawyer coach Steve Fretzin will take a deeper dive, helping you grow your law practice in less time with greater results. Now, here’s your host, Steve Fretzin. Hey,
Steve Fretzin [00:51]
everybody! Steve Fretzin here, and welcome back to the Be That Lawyer podcast. This is where you can build your book and own your future. We are so excited you’re here. I hit up Laura Paxton for top rainmakers and networkers that she knows, and she said you need to talk with Randy. And I was like, “Who’s Randy? And now Randiand I are becoming fast friends, and I’ve got her on the show. How you doing, Randy?
Randi Cohen [01:13]
I’m great this morning. How are you, Steve?
Steve Fretzin [01:15]
I’m doing fine. So we’re we’re just like talking about like going through the you know the show and everything I mentioned about. I’m going to be doing the keynote at the november 5 New York City Bar Symposium solo small, and I’ll be back in New York. And then you’re like, “Have you met Adam? And have you met Randy? And I’m just like, “I don’t know that I haven’t. Like, you’re already networking with me. We haven’t. I got a whole
Randi Cohen [01:34]
roster of folks for you. Your New York City lineup is set.
Steve Fretzin [01:37]
Yeah, like I’m just gonna. I’m not gonna see any of my clients. Screw them. They can go jump in a lake. I’m just going to meet new people. No, I got to see my clients. I got to, and I’d love to meet some new people, especially ones that really get it. Like that’s those are my people. So yeah, Adam Weisman
Randi Cohen [01:50]
is the chair of the small law firm group at the New York City Bar. So I’m sure that he will have a hand in this symposium that you’re going to be speaking at. And I I really love the New York City Bar. I’ve been a member and on their Labor and Employment Committee for a long time. I usually speak at their employment law conference in the spring. They do a lot of really great programming for all sorts of different kinds of practitioners. I’m glad you’re gonna get in there and show people who you are.
Steve Fretzin [02:14]
I’m kick. Yeah, I’m kicking it off, and I’ve got a really good sort of a podcast type of theme planned of like how we’re gonna you know address the toughest issues that lawyers have to grow their law practice is kind of the theme and I’m just gonna knock them down one by one and try to keep it really engaging, interactive, motivational, and no Tony Robbins but I’m gonna do my best to I’m not gonna set up the coals on the floor and have people walking across them but we’re gonna maybe I’ll come in a close second we’ll see you have the most interesting quote I’ve heard in a long time because it’s a quote that isn’t like a famous quote. It’s only famous to you and your partner because a big burly man described you and your partner as pit bulls and skirts. And so I wanted to know what that was all about. What must have transpired for that kind of a quote to occur? So welcome to the show and tell us how that happened.
Randi Cohen [02:59]
Thanks. Yeah. Oh, Malcolm, we loved Malcolm. He was such a nice guy, and he he was on really hard times. You know, big family to take care of, and you know, we’re employment lawyers, so people are coming to us with really personal stories, and they’re really fearful. It’s their livelihood, and nobody really knows how long they’re going to be down for when they’re in transition. And Malcolm had been done dirty, you know. We really felt for him, and sometimes a case is clear; it needs a soft touch. Sometimes it’s clear a case needs sharp teeth. We try not to bare our teeth unless we have to. That’s just like as a matter of practice. If we can get this done with a smile and a handshake, we will.
Steve Fretzin [03:38]
Yeah.
Randi Cohen [03:39]
And in Malcolm’s case, my recollection is that it took a little bit of weaving to figure out the right tone, and he just really enjoyed our emails. The other nickname that we’ve been recently we’ve been given over the years is that we’re email assassins.
Steve Fretzin [03:53]
Ah,
Randi Cohen [03:54]
for better for worse, I think probably made a few people cry being on a receiving end of one of my emails, but it’s been effective and gets the job done. And so that that is the origin of pit bulls and skirts. That you know we we are ladies and we are soft. And if we are tested, we’re not afraid to do what needs to be done.
Steve Fretzin [04:15]
There’s a great line from the original movie of Roadhouse with Patrick Swayze that he’s like he’s the like I don’t want to say the fixer, but he’s like like they call him the Ice Man or the cool the cooler. I had to I had to work my way there. The cooler is in charge of all the bouncers, and he said basically like he was like I don’t care what anyone does to you, be nice until it’s time to not be nice. Exactly, and that’s it. That’s it. Pit bull and skirts. Welcome to the show. So happy you’re here, everybody. RandiCohen’s a coner of Kalmanson Cohen in New York City. Give us how. Give us your backstory. How you came to be and and becoming this pit bull.
Randi Cohen [04:49]
Yeah. When you need to be with the cutie eyes. My kids call my dog. We have a dog Murphy. He’s got the cutest eyes. They call him the cutie eyes. Oh, I’m a pit bull with cutie eyes. Oh, there
Steve Fretzin [04:58]
we go. All right.
Randi Cohen [04:58]
Yeah. So. I had a little bit of a windy path to get to where I am now, and I wouldn’t really trade any of it, even the hardship along the way. I I um I started as a criminal prosecutor in Brooklyn. I cut my teeth trying cases in front of judge and jury very early, very young, and then I was really privileged to join the labor group at a mid-sized firm, Meyer Suozzi, where I represented unions and union members, and I just had the best mentors in town. I learned from a generation above me that had seen it all, and they really cared for my development and my success. And they gave me access to opportunity. They always made sure I looked good in front of the big bosses. I mean, it was just it was a very good experience, and many of those mentors are still practicing and are still rooting for me and sharing business with me to this day. So I’m very grateful. I know that in the COVID era, working remotely, it is harder sometimes to generate those nurture those really genuine three dimensional relationships in the workplace. I love working at home in my sweatpants, but sometimes you got to go have some FaceTime to build.
Steve Fretzin [06:04]
Yeah,
Randi Cohen [06:04]
you know, overhearing the conversation that you wouldn’t otherwise have access to because you’re all sitting around having lunch together. Anyway, sorry. So I was in this mid-sized firm for a few years, and then I bounced around a little bit. I actually took a year off from law to work in-house as an HR person. I kind of wanted to see how the sausage was made, where mistakes get made in companies before problems come to me, and I did that for exactly one year. I started on one day in April, and I left the following day. Following April, same day, it was really invaluable. I was bored. I got out of it what I needed to get out of it, and then I returned to practice. I was a small shop. It wasn’t a great fit. I was the only woman. I was getting good at developing business, and I wasn’t making any more money. And I was getting irritated by
Steve Fretzin [06:48]
it.
Randi Cohen [06:48]
And so I left there, and I wasn’t exactly sure. I was having a little bit of an identity crisis. Am I going to go in house and be an attorney for a company? Am I going to do my own thing? Am I looking for another firm? And while I was sort of finding my way, a friend of a friend was like, “Hey, can you look at this for me? Oh, would you? I’m starting a company. I think I need some contract, you know. And it just sort of happened organically. And then I met everybody should have a Kim. Kim and I are very, very different. We tease each other and we tell others that she’s the surgeon and I’m the social worker, and together we’re really we’re really proud of what we can offer to folks across the whole field.
Steve Fretzin [07:26]
Yeah.
Randi Cohen [07:27]
And so Kim had been out on her own longer than I had, and so she had some more of a pipeline and than I had. And at that time, I was taking overflow work from other small firms that were generous with me, with helping me build my library of materials, and with strategizing, oh, this is the situation. I could play it this way or this, you know. And before too long, I was like, oh, maybe I’ll take a vacation. Like this is going all right. Maybe I’ll treat myself to something. And before I knew it, I was off to the races. And then in 2018, Kim had a child. In 2019, I had a child in 2020. The world ended in 21. Both had children. That was poor planning. And then in 22 we spent the year preparing to merge our practices, which at that point were very fulsome. People knew us as a brand. We were kind of interchangeable for folks, but we it was all back of the envelope. We had no like central timekeeping system. We you know it was we had outgrown it. We’re running a seven figure practice on the back of an envelope, and it wasn’t appropriate anymore. So we worked with a coach. She was wonderful and generous. Like literally, the first day we met with her, she was like, “You need three bank accounts. Here’s how you think about every dollar you bring in. Thank, thank you, Ivy. So we did that, and we opened our doors together January one of 2023, and it’s been phenomenal. That
Steve Fretzin [08:45]
was Ivy Slater.
Randi Cohen [08:46]
Yes, we worked a lot. I love
Steve Fretzin [08:47]
Ivy. She’s great. She’s great.
Randi Cohen [08:49]
Yeah,
Steve Fretzin [08:50]
small little coaching world here that we live in, and I and I love when I hear the best players mentioned because people do have some bad experiences with coaches and consultants, and when I hear that people selected the right one and ones that were really valuable. It makes fills my heart that you know
Randi Cohen [09:05]
Ivy was really good for us in the moment that we came to each other.
Steve Fretzin [09:09]
Yeah,
Randi Cohen [09:09]
she was so warm and supportive, and also knew when we needed a little kick in the tush. And so I can’t remember if we worked with her for a year and a half, something thereabouts. But you know, by the time by the time we said we were ready to fly on our own, we were much closer to a well-oiled machine. We still made mistakes. We still called upon her, and she helped us. She’s very generous in that way. And you know, I’m grateful. I can’t imagine Kim and I have had invitations over the years to potentially merge with other firms or go lead a practice in a larger firm, and we really like being accountable to each other, and we really like being accountable to what work we do, and not what other people tell us we have to do. Right.
Steve Fretzin [09:52]
Well, that’s part of the autonomy of having your own gig. And I’ve got a client right now who was on her own for 10 years when. Into a firm is now dealing with the politics and the accountability and the things that are happening that she’s not used to. And like I could, I could never work for someone else. I just can’t. Like it’s not in my DNA anymore to take orders. Just my wife and my teenager. That’s it. But you know, people say, you know what? Maybe it’s better on the other side. And they get in there, and sometimes it isn’t. And they’re like, “Oh, I don’t have to deal with, you know, my own administrative. I don’t have to deal with paying bills. I don’t have to deal with all this stuff that I was, you know, not enjoying on my own. And then there’s other people that go in. They’re like, “Whoa, what did I just do? Like, this is not greener grass.
Randi Cohen [10:35]
Yeah, I think there’s a lot to say for it. I think that if you are a person that wants to know exactly what you’re going to earn and exactly what is expected of you and how to play that game, you know, there’s there’s a lot to say for it. It just happens that Kim and I continue to agree that we like what we have going here.
Steve Fretzin [10:51]
Yeah,
Randi Cohen [10:51]
and I’m really grateful for that. I say she’s my happiest marriage.
Steve Fretzin [10:54]
Nice, nice, yeah, great marriages. The question I wanted to start off is: you mentioned a few minutes ago that you turned out you were actually pretty good at business development. There are lawyers that have that natural personality like you have, and that can go out there and do it. There’s others that I work with and talk to that are more introverted and everything in between. I want to hear what was successful for you and helped you kind of get off on a good footing, but what were the things that maybe were difficult for you at the beginning? I want to hear kind of both sides of that.
Randi Cohen [11:26]
Yeah, yeah. So I’ll say that I’m really good at business development for my area of the law. I wouldn’t know the first thing about getting a bankruptcy client, but with what we do, you are a boss or you have a boss, and at one point, all of you will need somebody with the skill set that Kim and I have, and so my entire approach to networking is not to think of it as networking. It’s just authenticity. So I can’t sometimes get away from it, even if I’m trying to. I have I have had occasions where I have been out in the world and I’m not trying to talk shop, and but I can’t help myself, so it’s just a genuine curiosity about people’s lives and what they have going on for them. Asking intelligent questions and stopping to listen for the answer, and maybe offering two sense of feedback and saying, “Oh, well, you know, if you want to continue that conversation, I’m happy to. Or, “Oh, I have a colleague who actually just handled an issue like that, right? It’s not always about bringing in the business for me. It is about listening to the need of the person that you are talking to, and when I’m being actually purposeful about networking and being honest about it, it’s that I become invested in my clients, so they become a brand ambassador for me. I’m not attempt. I’m not trying to manipulate them, but I try to care for them. Well, when we, but when we
Steve Fretzin [12:45]
have good people in our world and it feels good to spread, the only one I would say don’t don’t give out is if you have a really good handyman or somebody that does concern that, like because then everybody uses them and then they can’t. You know, they’re like, oh, see in three months.
Randi Cohen [12:56]
Yeah, babysitters.
Steve Fretzin [12:57]
You said three things, maybe five things, but three that I picked up, Ron, very quickly that lawyers need to take a pause and listen to. Number one is, you know, be your authentic self. Unless you’re like a crazy weirdo or something, then try to be someone else. But be your authentic place for weirdos.
Randi Cohen [13:13]
Come on. All
Steve Fretzin [13:14]
right, all right. Well, it depends on the weirdness. You know, like yeah, I’m not going to get into that. But be authentically wonderful. Okay, don’t try to be someone else. Number two is you said be curious, so you’re not making this a sale. You’re not making this about you. You’re making this about listening and understanding and being curious about other people. And then you also use the word offer. And I would I would put down that what people are not recognizing is the way to build likability and trust is to be useful and helpful and offer to others. Like in the first five minutes of our chat today, you were already thinking about two people that would be great for my show or two people that I should network with. I didn’t ask you for that. You just like you put that to me because you saw that there are people that I should meet that I haven’t met yet, right?
Randi Cohen [13:59]
Yeah, I don’t even actually think of that as networking. I think of that as connecting.
Steve Fretzin [14:02]
Well, okay, so we
Speaker 2 [14:04]
can certainly separate
Steve Fretzin [14:05]
them, but I mean, one might lead to the other, and I think that’s kind of what what happens is is networking and developing the relationship, and then does that lead to connecting and adding value for others, which is what I believe is the greatest way of developing trust, right? Is but don’t do it too soon. Like don’t like you and I could do it because we already we already met and talked. But I think like if you meet like someone met met somebody says right away says how can I help you? I don’t think that’s a first two minute conversation, right? I think you need that that might be after you recognize this person is a stable a stable person or whatever that they’re they’re good at what they do, and I’ve got a whole activity. Well, then let’s build
Randi Cohen [14:42]
off that for a second. You get invited to a networking mixer, and you know that you’re walking around with a name tag and a pocket full of cards, and it’s just a dreadful room full of suits. You’re going to have the same conversation that’s 75 seconds long, 12 times over, and you’re going to leave the night exhausted. And you’re probably not going to remember anybody that you spoke to, and you’re going to feel like you got to stay in bed for two days for the like social hangover that you’re going to have. I don’t go to those things anymore. I did. I spent plenty of time in those rooms early on, and I in fact met some very valuable people, but they didn’t become valuable to me until I saw them another time and had a meal with them and a really authentic conversation, and a lot of them went nowhere. I can’t tell you how many follow up lunches I had where it was like, “Oh my god, didn’t the check come yet? But when you get better about figuring out which room you should be in and why you’re in it, then it doesn’t feel so taxing and exhausting. And my business is now in a place where I’m not going to a room for the purpose of networking. I might go to the playground with my children and hang out with my neighbors, who tell me, “Oh God, that one spouse just got laid off. Oh gosh, okay, tell me. And we get and what
Steve Fretzin [15:55]
happened? Yeah,
Randi Cohen [15:55]
right, right. Get to talking.
Steve Fretzin [15:57]
Yeah.
Randi Cohen [15:58]
So there I was networking while pushing my kid on the swing, yeah, and you know you rinse and repeat, and then you build a a name for yourself as somebody that’s helpful, compassionate, willing to take the time. Sometimes people have a problem that is not my wheelhouse. I love nothing more than saying, “Oh, I have a wonderful person who can help you with this. Send me a note. I’ll send out an email.
Steve Fretzin [16:19]
Yeah. Well, the challenge that lawyers have, most of them, is that they don’t have a plan. So what they do is they do random acts of marketing and business development, where they do attend a random conference or go to a an event where they’re completely irrelevant to their space, and they’re just spinning their wheels, meeting a bunch of people that are not going to be valuable. So number one, you said is targeting, and so go where you know go. If you’re if you’re hungry for pizza, go to the pizza place. Don’t go to this you know the steakhouse. And so I think people need to think about who where are their who are their clients? Where are they? Are they on boards? Are they a part of private clubs? Are they attending certain conferences? Right. And who are the best strategic partners? Who are the connectors? Right. If you want to meet HR people and those are the connectors for you into the companies, then you need to go where the HR people are. Right. The second part of it, and I think you and I both went through this, where we were meeting with anyone for any reason, is when I’m in a in an event or I’m meeting somebody that it’s a targeted room, but I’m also spending some time, 1015 minutes, talking with them, and I’m qualifying them while I’m listening. So I’m listening to them about what they do and all that to understand: is this person someone I should invest 30 minutes or an hour with beyond? Right.
Randi Cohen [17:31]
That’s a really great point. You can tell pretty quickly whether somebody is just trying to pitch you on what they do.
Steve Fretzin [17:36]
Yeah. Okay.
Randi Cohen [17:38]
Got it.
Steve Fretzin [17:39]
Or they’re just totally again irrelevant to your space. If I’m meeting someone who sells, you know, silk flowers in a retail store, I think that’s a pretty quick conversation for me to move away, right? If I’m talking with someone whose entire world revolves around lawyers because they do recruiting or they do IT or they do whatever, like I’m in that, I’m in that moment, and yes, we should grab a lunch, and I’ll probably even treat, okay? Because this is someone who who’s housing, you know, the keys to the kingdom, and and I, by the way, I have those same keys, right? And with a whole different network for that person, that’s the magic that can happen in the development of what we call strategic partnerships, referral partnerships, and that’s ultimately where, when we say, “Hey, let’s not have to go out and network so much, right? Let’s not have to go to all these events and parties because we’ve developed a stable of 510, 15 people, and we can just keep investing time with our clients and with those people, not meeting strangers forever.
Randi Cohen [18:37]
That’s right. So our business is primarily word of mouth. It’s our former clients, it’s our former adversaries, and it’s our competitors. Our compat because we lead with generosity, our competitors return the favor if they’re too busy or if they have a case that they think we would be a nice match for, or we’ve already dealt with that company or whatever. You know, it’s very much appreciated to be thought of. We have there’s another small firm. They’re fantastic, Weinstein and Klein. They do a lot of what we do. They do some things we don’t do. They we do some things they don’t do. We cross refer all the time. And on our corporate practice, we represent a medical practice, and we needed to do an investigation. It needed to be separate and independent. So we brought them in. I was happy to give them the work, and I knew that they would be independent and tell me what they what I needed to hear, even if it was not what I wanted to hear.
Steve Fretzin [19:27]
Yeah.
Randi Cohen [19:27]
And those kinds of relationships are so valuable, and they’re built over time, and they’re tested. Right. Sometimes you think you have a great strategic relationship, and it’s not. I brought you in to do this work, and you didn’t meet the standard. Okay, you learn, you move on.
Steve Fretzin [19:41]
Yep, yep.
Randi Cohen [19:42]
But the only way through is to try.
Steve Fretzin [19:44]
Yeah. So again, that goes back to targeting. Like you understand that your competitors are your targets in the sense of how you could possibly collaborate when there’s rate issues or there’s conflicts or there’s you know just people that are not a good fit, right? You want to be that the the number one. Hey everybody! Your next big client might call at 8 p.m. on a Saturday night. The question is, who’s picking up? With Lex Reception, a real person answers every call 24 hours a day, seven days a week, so you never miss a lead, no matter when they reach out. No AI agents, no voicemail, just professional, legal literate receptionists representing your firm the right way around the clock, and right now, be that lawyer listeners get 250 off their first month. Visit www.lexreception.com/partners/bethatlawyer to claim your offer. That’s www.lexreception.com/partners/bether Hey everybody, Steve Fretzen here. And at Lawyer.com, they don’t just market law firms; they help them grow. From connecting millions of consumers to trusted lawyers to smarter intake and industry-leading events, they’re building stronger connections across legal visibility, intake, events, growth-that’s lawyer.com. Check them out today. With proven SEO and digital marketing strategies that drive actual clients to your firm, Rankings.io prides itself on proof, not promises mentality. The best firms hire Rankings.io when they want rankings, traffic, and cases other law firm marketing agencies can’t deliver. Get more rankings, get cases, and schedule a free consultation at rankings.io today. Randy, I’m curious. Maybe we go back and forth a couple times because I think this is where we can really add a lot, even more value than we’re already adding. Would be what’s like everyone that that networks and builds Bill’s business has one or two things that really works for them, like a little hidden secret or something that just may not work for everybody, but for you it really works. Is there one tip that you consistently use to whether it’s it’s maybe it’s qualifying, maybe it’s targeting, maybe it’s how you actually convert a new relationship into something? I’ll share
Randi Cohen [22:00]
my
Steve Fretzin [22:00]
ethical, yeah,
Randi Cohen [22:01]
my clients, my adversaries-they get to know me.
Speaker 3 [22:04]
Okay.
Randi Cohen [22:04]
And of course, there’s a filter to some extent, and it’s not the same level of vulnerability or access across the board. But my part of the reason I find this work so gratifying is that the connections are really genuine. Most of, not most, a very generous percentage of my clients walk away feeling like they’re my friend.
Steve Fretzin [22:27]
Yeah,
Randi Cohen [22:28]
and I feel a kinship for them too. They have trusted me to be their sturdy leader through a really difficult period, and I have clients now who really are my friends, and it feels so loving to be cared for back.
Steve Fretzin [22:46]
Yeah, well, that’s but that’s so. There are certain areas of law that are easier to develop close relationships when personal things are discussed, right? Like I feel that way about my estate planner’s Justin. He’s a client of mine too, but we’re friends. And I was going out to a barbecue, and I invited him to come, and we brought his family, and you know we’ll do that, you know, not every day, but like he came over to the house and like brought his daughter, and you know was loving up our cat, or we had a kitten at the time, and all that. So, but in so in some areas it’s easier than others. However, I think lawyers need to understand that the work and the matters is one aspect. Be a great lawyer. Then there’s maybe a half a dozen other things that you need to do, whether it’s the social relationship, whether it’s being their their go to person when they need something in or outside of a legal matter. What are some things that lawyers should be thinking about to develop that loyalty and that and that that sort of that trust that doesn’t exist when it’s just a transactional sale?
Randi Cohen [23:41]
So again, I can’t. I don’t know how you do it with a bankruptcy client, but for me, I remember things. I follow up. How is that going? Or how you know your kid was sick last week, right? Or I have a there’s a couple who are in my community, and I have represented each the husband and the wife on various transactions. And I ran into them at a concert a month ago, like in the restroom. I ran into the wife who we had never met in person, only over Zoom, and she was like, “Oh my God, it’s RandiCohen in the bed. And so we came out. She brought her husband over. We had a beer. We took a picture. Like, it’s just be real, be imperfect. Yeah. Be you know, hey, Mike, I’m I’m I’m praised this afternoon, but I promise this will have my attention over hot coffee tomorrow. Do you want to talk over hot coffee in the morning? Yeah. Just be real. People appreciate it. They feel free to then be real in return. And also, don’t be a jerk about the pill. Don’t be a jerk about the pill. People are not going to trust you. They’re not going to like you. They’re not going to feel safe in your care, if you’re a jerk about the bill,
Steve Fretzin [24:43]
yeah,
Randi Cohen [24:43]
because that extra point two or point five or whatever is going to cost you the repeat business,
Steve Fretzin [24:49]
yeah, and the referrals that come with it, right? The people that love you will refer you. They want to send people to you because they know you’re the best and they know how much they like and trust you. And when you get, you know, I had. Guy who it was wonderful relationship until I realized that when he was asking me about my family and how was my trip and all the things that you’re saying to remember that I was then getting billed for that and I was so bent out of shape about it that he was not my lawyer anymore or he called me and I’d be like you know let’s just get down to it yeah it ruined the it ruined the friendship and the relationship because he made a stupid error to not exclude that time together at the beginning of a call, and made me really resent him. So, you know, to your point, I think you you have to go these days beyond and above, you know, what is what traditionally has happened in a client relationship to make sure that it’s it’s super sticky.
Randi Cohen [25:41]
Yeah, that’s exactly right.
Steve Fretzin [25:42]
Yeah, and then how about as far as networking? Any other, any other kind of? I think we’re kind of you know we have maybe a couple minutes left. Any other tips of like how you like? Let’s say you’re meeting someone for coffee. I mean, I we get authenticity, we get asking questions, or anything else that you’re doing in that meeting that sort of helps solidify that this is something that could really be a win-win.
Randi Cohen [26:03]
Well, so if it’s a coffee meeting, it’s not a client. It’s just somebody I’ve met, say at a conference or one of those rooms with the business cards. You know, what are you working on? What’s been troubling you? What are your goals for next year? Who do you want to meet? Oh, I have somebody that might be good for you. Have you encountered so and so before? Kind of like you and I just did before we started talking, recording.
Steve Fretzin [26:24]
But you’re being a connector. I mean, it’s yeah cannot you cannot help somebody when you don’t ask questions and and care about where they’re going, what their problems are, like what keeps them up at night, all these things. And I think people in a networking thing they just talk. This is I do this and I do this and I do this, and I do this, and then you and I drift off to sleep, right? Because it’s so. I was on a networking call the other day. Both of the people I met with, I mean, it was hard to hear their infomercials because it was just so incredibly boring. I had to like interrupt to like get onto something else because they they had no real direction.
Randi Cohen [26:59]
Sometimes the best part of the conversation is not about the work. Where are you vacationing this summer? Are you training for the marathon? Oh my God, your kid broke their arm. Like whatever it is that is so real to them, that might also be real to you, where you have your own anecdote and oh my gosh, then you have a shared history.
Steve Fretzin [27:15]
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Finding common ground. I mean, that’s a really big one. You know, you’ve what? What ages are your kids?
Randi Cohen [27:21]
Five and seven.
Steve Fretzin [27:22]
Five and seven. All right. So probably my favorite time when my son Andrew was, you know, my I was the soccer coach and throwing the ball and like you know taking him to you know all these like little fun concerts and the wiggles and like all that stuff. And now he’s 19 and like the it’s totally different. But I want to hear about maybe not right now while we’re doing this podcast. But I like hearing about what’s going on with the kids at five and seven because that age was super special to me. And even when I was like a counselor in day camp, like that was kind of the age that I did. I think it was like first and second grade.
Randi Cohen [27:57]
Their son, their yeah, it’s a really funny. It’s like everything is cusping. My son can read to himself before bed. I don’t read to him anymore, but he still wants me to lay with him. So I read my book next to him. Okay. He asks me questions about the book I’m reading.
Speaker 4 [28:11]
Yeah.
Randi Cohen [28:11]
And my daughter, who’s two years behind, is like hot on his tail. She wants to keep up with him, so she tries to read to me, and she gets stuck, and she’s very determined. Okay. And then she’s so proud of herself. So you know, it’s it’s really wonderful to see their gears go.
Steve Fretzin [28:26]
Yeah. Well, just hang on to it because the teenage years are rough. No, they are rough. Okay. Um. Anyway, if you if anyone’s listening, you have teenagers. You know, you’re probably nodding right now. Like, holy crap! I didn’t ex I didn’t see this coming. No matter what people told me, I didn’t really didn’t realize what was coming my way. It’s also lovely and wonderful too. Okay, Randy, I have one more question for you, and it’s my favorite question to ask at the end of every show, and that is, what’s Randy’s big mistake?
Randi Cohen [28:51]
I’d like to think I don’t make it anymore.
Steve Fretzin [28:53]
Okay,
Randi Cohen [28:54]
but it took me a really really long time to learn that I could count on myself. The imposter complex was really loud, and for Kim too. And so we had to grow up with each other on that, and push each other, and help keep each other’s anxiety in check. And we did a case together that was highly confidential. It was back in Me Too, and it was terrifying to both of us. It was like the biggest case we had ever been trusted with. The lawyers on the other side smelled the blood in the water, and they thought that they would intimidate us and frighten us and try to, you know, beat us around. And on the outside, we were baring our teeth. We were the pit bulls, and we ended up doing a very good job for the client. But on the inside, we were terrified. We were terrified. We were terrified.
Steve Fretzin [29:34]
Yeah.
Randi Cohen [29:35]
And it took us a really long time to have a sense of humor about that experience and what we learned, and like my visceral sense memory is just sweating, sweating, and pacing.
Steve Fretzin [29:45]
Yeah.
Randi Cohen [29:45]
And now the lawyer on the other side of that case, who tried to be the big bad wolf and scare us, is one of our most steady, reliable.
Steve Fretzin [29:52]
Oh my God! What an incredible.
Randi Cohen [29:54]
She has sent us her personal friends.
Steve Fretzin [29:58]
Yeah.
Randi Cohen [29:58]
She. It’s. It was so. A gratifying full circle, and now I like to think when somebody is trying to kick us around, they just don’t know who we are yet.
Steve Fretzin [30:08]
Yeah, and you always have these experiences like that one you mentioned to like fall back on to remind you that you’re the shit, like you’ve got this, and right, and nobody’s gonna push. Nobody’s gonna push the bulldogs around. So amazing! Hey, let’s take a moment. Thank our incredible sponsors. Of course, PimCon coming up. If you guys haven’t signed up yet, if you’re personal injury or aligned with that, you want to check that out. And of course, my friend Chris over at Rankings, amazing guy. And Lawyer.com, great directory. And there’s my friend in New York, Colleen, hanging out there. I didn’t get to see her last time, and I’m going to make that happen in November. And of course, Lex Reception. Don’t answer your phone. What are you doing? Let someone professional pick it up and get it to you the right way with the right intake. That’s going to be Lex Reception. Randy, people are thrilled to have heard you today on the show, and they want to connect with you. They want to send you work. You’re the go-to. What’s the what are the digits?
Randi Cohen [30:58]
Please email me. Don’t call me RandiR A N D [email protected] K A L M A N S O N C O H E n.com. It was a mistake. We should have gone with calco.com. We’ll change it at some point.
Steve Fretzin [31:13]
All right, you’ll give me. Nelson
Randi Cohen [31:14]
cohen.com.
Steve Fretzin [31:16]
There we go. And I like how you like enunciated the way through it. Like I have to go when people say I say Fretzen, I go F is in Frank. Like I have to start off with that every time. Too long.
Randi Cohen [31:25]
I just apologize before I start. It’s long. I’m sorry. Writing. It’s
Steve Fretzin [31:28]
fine. You work it out. You work it out. It’s all good. That’s a well. I just can’t tell you how much I appreciated the intro from Lauren and the fact that we got to do this together, collaborate on helping lawyers around the world figure out this horrible, terrible, nasty thing called business development and networking, and look, no apologies. If you look at it the way that Randiand I look at it, it’s an incredible opportunity to meet amazing people, to be of service, and to have some fun with this business development. It doesn’t have to be sales. That’s really the angle here. Well, thank you so much for coming on the show and sharing your wisdom.
Randi Cohen [32:00]
Thanks for having me, Steve. It was great to meet you and great to get to chat and talk shop. And I will see you in New York City in November.
Steve Fretzin [32:07]
Yeah, that’s going to be amazing. And for all of you, yeah, check us. Sign up for that solo small symposium at the New York City bar. You can want to come to New York, or if you want, if you’re already in New York City, take care of that november 5. I’m going to be there with bells on, and look-it’s all about building that book and owning your future and being that lawyer. Everybody, take care, be safe and well. We will talk again soon.
Narrator [32:33]
Thanks for listening to Be That Lawyer: life-changing strategies and resources for growing a successful law practice. Visit Steve’s website fretzin.com for additional information and to stay up to date on the latest legal business development and marketing trends. For more information and important links about today’s episode, check out today’s show notes.