In this episode, Steve Fretzin and Ray Koenig discuss:
- Developing a successful practice while remaining authentic to yourself.
- Integrating your charitable and civic pursuits into your successful private practice.
- Picking your extracurricular organizations intentionally and meaningfully.
- Benefiting from bar association participation and leadership.
Key Takeaways:
- Try things you’re afraid of – they’re never as bad as you think they will be.
- You don’t always need to tell people what type of lawyer you are – for the general public you can build yourself up as a trusted advisor who solves problems.
- Being part of organizations is not enough – you should be building relationships and participating actively in those organizations.
- It’s not all about you. Be authentic, but also spotlight other people’s successes too.
“Pick a board, pick an organization, that’s doing the things that you’re really interested in, but at the same time, has kind of the audience – the donors, the board members – that are people that you want to get to know for professional reasons as well.” — Ray Koenig
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Episode References:
- Roy Sexton: https://www.linkedin.com/in/royesexton/
- @theBar Podcast: https://www.chicagobar.org/CBA/YLS_Law_Students/_theBar_Podcast.aspx
About Ray Koenig: Ray Koenig represents individuals, families, financial and medical institutions, charities and governmental agencies in probate, trust, and guardianship controversies, including complex matters which require practical solutions.
Ray continually provides quality, responsive, and efficient representation to his clients. Ray is dedicated to the needs of his clients, whether that requires aggressive advocacy in a courtroom, skilled negotiations to prevent or conclude litigation, or effective counseling to avoid future trust and estate controversies.
Ray seeks ways to resolve difficult issues in the most effective manner possible. His success has resulted in appointments by judges as Guardian Ad Litem and defense counsel by judges in complicated guardianship matters, and as Special Administrator in problematic probate matters.
Ray has decades of experience in a variety of aspects of controversies involving trusts, probate, guardianships and related fiduciary issues including will and trust contests, will and trust construction and reformation actions, citations to recover, breach of fiduciary duty claims, charitable disputes, and guardianship litigation.
His years of practice have also resulted in his retention as an expert witness in matters involving guardianship and probate issues. His depth of knowledge has been informed by and led to many speaking engagements and publications.
Ray serves as Co-Chair of the firm’s global Litigation practice, and as an elected member of the firm’s Executive Committee. Ray proudly served as Managing Member of the firm’s Chicago office from 2011 to 2023.
Connect with Ray Koenig:
Website: https://www.clarkhill.com/people/ray-j-koenig-iii/
Email: [email protected]
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/raykoenig/
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/clark-hill-law/
Connect with Steve Fretzin:
LinkedIn: Steve Fretzin
Twitter: @stevefretzin
Instagram: @fretzinsteve
Facebook: Fretzin, Inc.
Website: Fretzin.com
Email: [email protected]
Book: Legal Business Development Isn’t Rocket Science and more!
YouTube: Steve Fretzin
Call Steve directly at 847-602-6911
Show notes by Podcastologist Chelsea Taylor-Sturkie
Audio production by Turnkey Podcast Productions. You’re the expert. Your podcast will prove it.
FULL TRANSCRIPT
[00:00:00] Steve Fretzin: Hello, my Be That Lawyer friends. Before we dive in today’s show, I have a small favor to ask. My mission in the legal industry is to help legal professionals like you take law practice growth seriously. I hope you’re finding value in this podcast and it’s aiding you in growing your law practice. Now, it only takes a moment to make a positive impact on someone’s life.
[00:00:19] Steve Fretzin: If you’re enjoying the show, please help us spread the word. A kind review or five star rating would go a long way in helping us reach more of your amazing colleagues. Thank you for your support, and now, let’s get on to the show.
[00:00:35] Narrator: You’re listening to Be That Lawyer, life changing strategies and resources for growing a successful law practice. Each episode, your host, author and lawyer coach, Steve Fretzin, will take a deeper dive Helping you grow your law practice in less time than you think. With greater results Now here’s your host steve fretzinn
[00:00:57] Steve Fretzin: Hey everybody, welcome back.
[00:00:58] Steve Fretzin: It’s steve fretzinn again with the be that lawyer with bretson podcast. Oh, man, we are Brushing it right now. We’ve got over 415 episodes. I think in about five years And it’s all about helping you to be that lawyer. Someone who’s confident, organized and a skilled rainmaker. And I’m getting compliments and this is not an ego thing.
[00:01:18] Steve Fretzin: This is a straight up thing and it’s not me. It’s actually the guests that I’m bringing on are phenomenal. And the fact that I’m enjoying them, that’s where I’m bringing to it. But I, I’m just excited when I can bring on people that are going to share things that are going to help you. To be more successful in your career as a lawyer and get to the next level.
[00:01:33] Steve Fretzin: So today is no different. Ray, how you doing, buddy?
[00:01:36] Ray Koenig: I’m well, thanks, Steve.
[00:01:38] Steve Fretzin: Good. It’s good to see you. It seems like we haven’t seen each other in a long time. That could be the reality.
[00:01:44] Ray Koenig: That’s because we have very busy lives. I mean, you’re, you’re, you’re soaring and I, and I’m just trying to keep up.
[00:01:49] Steve Fretzin: You try to keep up.
[00:01:50] Steve Fretzin: Yeah. Well, between managing your law, your, your law firm’s office and the Chicago bar presidency over years. I mean, you got a lot, a lot of, you had a lot on your plate. Yeah.
[00:02:00] Ray Koenig: Yes, yes, I did and I still have a lot on my plate, but you know, I’m slowly moving into a new future.
[00:02:08] Steve Fretzin: You’re just shifting, right? Just shifting it over to other priorities, which is cool.
[00:02:13] Steve Fretzin: So let’s start off as I love to do with the quote of the show, it’s, it, I’m a huge, I mean, huge Bruce Lee fan, not to where like, I’ve like read everything he’s written, but like, Seen all his movies, like, grew up with him in the 70s, 80s, and all that, and just phenomenal. Always be yourself. Express yourself.
[00:02:29] Steve Fretzin: Have faith in yourself. Do not go out and look for a successful personality and duplicate it. Talk to me about that. That’s, that’s deep. It’s heavy.
[00:02:38] Ray Koenig: It is, it is. And I also, I’ve also been a big, I’m not a huge, you know karate action movie fan, but I, I love Bruce Lee’s life story, and I, I, I’m sad, but I kind of love the tragedy of it too, because in a way, he left us with so many great gems like that, and, and he didn’t live long enough to, to screw it up, so that we, we stopped liking him, you know which is a tragedy, but at the same time, this quote, you This quote resonates with me because I learned early on to, to early on as a lawyer, especially, and then back when I was in the closet before I became an openly gay man, I, I tried to be other people.
[00:03:14] Ray Koenig: I tried to emulate other people and tried to be successful by doing what they were doing. And that was I was a real failure at it. It was just, I wasn’t good at being in the closet. And then I, and then I was really bad at trying to build a career for myself by emulating the people at my former firm.
[00:03:31] Ray Koenig: Or attorneys who I knew were really successful. What I learned from them was really, you know, try, you can try to emulate, try to do what they’re doing, see what works for you. And that’s kind of why that quote has always resonated with me, as it’s, you gotta, you gotta be yourself in order to make it, if you try to be somebody else.
[00:03:48] Ray Koenig: It’s not going to work unless you’re an actor.
[00:03:50] Steve Fretzin: Well, unless you’re a terrible person, then maybe you don’t want to be sure. You know, that’s
[00:03:55] Ray Koenig: true. Maybe you need therapy.
[00:03:59] Steve Fretzin: Right. Right. There might be a different therapy, different profession, go, go hide on an island somewhere. But yeah, I’m, I think that’s something that you and I have in common.
[00:04:08] Steve Fretzin: Well, certain things, but mainly it’s that we just want to be us. We want to be who we are. And I think what’s beautiful about the timing of the world today Is that, you know, video and audio and re and all this stuff you had to kind of put on a face and you kind of had to, you know, step up your game. And now.
[00:04:26] Steve Fretzin: Authenticity has, has become, you know, the new normal and I’m allowed to say and ah, and have a, a video shoot that is in three cameras that’s highly edited. And we’re able to say what we feel and, you know, within reason out into the public and it’s become the way to go.
[00:04:43] Ray Koenig: Yeah, absolutely. I agree. It really has.
[00:04:45] Ray Koenig: And it’s just, it’s, it’s so much easier too. It’s exhausting to, to try to be somebody else. And again, I can just speak on it. So many aspects of life just. Within a bar association, being yourself, being a good leader within a law firm, being yourself, trying to develop clients, being yourself, just it’s so much easier to be who you are.
[00:05:04] Ray Koenig: And then that reads as authentic and an example would be the politicians that, you know, we all know politicians are playing to some extent that’s part of the game, but at the same time, the ones that are really popular, the ones that really do well are the ones that people. See, as authentic better works, you know, some of them are authentically evil no names will be named, but some of them are but and they’ve been successful just because people say, Hey, I like him.
[00:05:27] Ray Koenig: I like her because they’re themselves and that there’s a lot of truth to that. And that I think translates into a professional and personal lives as well.
[00:05:34] Steve Fretzin: Yeah, I had this this imagine this, this idea that for a movie where Trump would be on stage talking about and doing what he does and then he’d come off stage and he was like this normal guy, like you and me, like just this average guy that sits down and complains that his peas are cold or something like that.
[00:05:51] Steve Fretzin: And it’s like. I don’t know. That’s just, I find that to be like kind of a funny potential, funny storyline. Anyway, we’re not going to make that movie. That’s a fact. So Ray Konig, you’re a partner at Clarkdale and I would love, I mean, we’ve already kind of gone into some things that you’ve done and sort of how you came to be, but, but talk to us a little bit about your legal career and how you, how you decided to be an attorney and then how you kind of built up to, you know, run an office for a major firm and all that kind of stuff.
[00:06:16] Ray Koenig: Yeah, so I, I started, it’s interesting growing up, we’re going way back, Steve growing up, you know, I just always wanted to be either a teacher or a lawyer, but I grew up in a very working class family from White Lake, Michigan, single mom, male lady, she raised my brother and I primarily on her own with a big village around a big family.
[00:06:34] Ray Koenig: And I didn’t know any lawyers. As far as I knew everybody that I went to school with, some of their parents were white collar professionals, but most of them, you know, worked for the big three, because this was the suburbs of Detroit. So one of the big auto companies, a supplier worked in the service industry, you know, bartending, that sort of thing, or worked for the government, like my mom worked for the post office.
[00:06:55] Ray Koenig: And that’s kind of the world I grew up in, and the people that I saw as professionals who were doing good things in the world were teachers, because everybody has teachers. And I love that, and I love the idea of being a teacher. So I actually went off to college, I went to Michigan State to be a teacher, that’s why I chose Michigan State, it was, you know, then it was ranked number one in secondary ed, and it still is.
[00:07:14] Ray Koenig: It was a, it was a great school, it was wonderful, wonderful for me. Then as I got into graduating and I was gonna do this fifth year student internship thing as, as part of the teaching program, I decided that, you know, I really should give this law thing. And I’m kind of grateful that I was so naive because in my mind, I thought I could go be a lawyer.
[00:07:33] Ray Koenig: If I didn’t like, I could go back to being a teacher without thinking of the 100 grand in student loans. I was going to take on, which I’d never be able to pay back as a teacher. So fortunately I did the law thing. I studied for the LSAT. I took a year off, worked in the Michigan house representatives.
[00:07:47] Ray Koenig: Learned that I, I did not want to be an elected politician but I really liked working there. And so, and then I ended up applying to a bunch of law schools. The one I chose was DePaul here in Chicago, and that’s how I ended up here. So and then when I was in law school, I, I was, I, again, my naivete kind of guided me somewhere.
[00:08:06] Ray Koenig: I got to be in the right direction. Looking for jobs my first summer and I waited to be able to bartend it and stuff through through college law school. I, because I had to have self funding, but I, I, I love my property law class. That’s the one out. And in my mind, I’m like, Oh, interesting. I could be a property lawyer, whatever the heck that means.
[00:08:24] Ray Koenig: I mean, it’s really Almost all of the civil law is grounded in property law. So it’s, I could have been anything, but in my mind, I meant, okay, well, maybe a state planning. So I applied for a, I had, I had a job with a criminal defense attorney one summer and part of the school year, which was really cool.
[00:08:38] Ray Koenig: Tommy, I did not want to go to criminal defense. Those people are crazy and amazing, but that work was just, it was too much for me. And then I, so I started clerking with the, a small firm that did a state planning and probate and trust litigation. First weekend, I realized I had to quit. Did not want to be an estate planner.
[00:08:55] Ray Koenig: It was interesting but boring to me. I, but the other part of the firm did all this litigation stuff, which I always said I never wanted to be a litigator, which is one of the lessons in my life is you should always try things you’re afraid of because you probably find out they’re not that bad. And I found I was afraid of being a litigator.
[00:09:09] Ray Koenig: And, and so I started doing that and I loved it. I just kind of, I got really lucky that I followed that path. Naive idea that I should be a property lawyer and ended up at a firm that did probate litigation, which is what I’ve done for 25 years now. So I started at a answer question. I started a small firm.
[00:09:24] Ray Koenig: We helped build it up to like, it was, I think when I joined, I was maybe like the 4th attorney. And we built it up to like, 15 or 16 by the time I left 9 years and 9 months later. My name was on the door by then I was a partner, but then I left because Clark Hill recruited me. There are other reasons, but that was primary reason they recruited me.
[00:09:41] Ray Koenig: Buck Hill, my current firm was about 190 attorneys then mostly Michigan. And they only had, I think, I think it was probably like the 12th attorney in Chicago. And over the last 15 years, we’ve grown into a International firm with over 700 attorneys in Chicago. We now have around 90. That’s the big overview.
[00:10:01] Steve Fretzin: Yeah. Yeah. Well, no, it’s, but it’s a good lead into people understanding kind of where you came from and humble beginnings and all of that. And what I really wanted to understand is like, I’ve sort of been observing you for many years since we met, and I’m not going to say how many years ago it was, but I’ll put a number out there and just say in the 10 to 15 range.
[00:10:17] Steve Fretzin: Okay. And you’ve really put yourself out there on so many levels. And I wanted to talk to you about that because authenticity and being who you are and how that can be leveraged into growing a law practice, it may not be completely understood by most of the attorneys. I think they’re afraid to post on social.
[00:10:36] Steve Fretzin: I think they’re afraid to show their real sides. They’re afraid to, you know, speak and be authentic in how they present all that type of thing. So can you just talk a little bit about, first of all, why do you think lawyers struggle to. Be authentic or to put themselves out there to demonstrate that authenticity.
[00:10:53] Ray Koenig: I honestly, I think it’s, it goes back to the Bruce Lee quote at the beginning. I think people, young lawyers especially, or see somebody in their firm, in their practice, somebody that’s really successful. They think, Oh, I got to do what they did. And that’s not, that’s just not true. I started, I like the firm I started at, it was led by a highly successful attorney and he marketed in a very specific way.
[00:11:12] Ray Koenig: And, you know, if you walked into the room, you know, you’d walk out, like, maybe six or seven people thought, oh, God, he’s overbearing. The other three or four loved him. And that’s more than enough to build a book on and to build a successful business on. And he did. And, but I wasn’t that personality. I tried to do that for a while.
[00:11:28] Ray Koenig: Like, this is terrible. I can’t be that. I’m not that person. So then I just started feeling like, what, what is it about me? Why would somebody hire me as a young person, as an attorney? I’ve always been in private practice. And it really was for me, they’re going to get to know me as a person. They need to get to know me as a person who has good judgment, who is interesting, who they want to spend time with, because you spend a lot of time with your lawyers, whether you’re at an institution or you’re an individual or a family.
[00:11:52] Ray Koenig: And then I just kind of, I became that person that I didn’t become. I was that person. I just started being myself and I started looking for ways to get myself out there where I meet decision makers in a, in a non legal setting. So, one of the things that I did is I started like, well, what am I interested in?
[00:12:09] Ray Koenig: I’ve always had this charitable bent. I’ve always been very involved in politics. What am I interested in? So I started doing political things, kind of primarily the LGBTQ space, because that’s where I felt most comfortable and I had a kinship with people and that also, I’ve always felt very strongly about charity work for poverty, around poverty and homelessness and HIV and AIDS issues.
[00:12:29] Ray Koenig: So I started getting involved in different charities and started meeting people. I got on junior boards and I got on other boards. I started meeting people who liked me for me. And then they are like, Oh, you’re a lawyer. Cool. And then over time, they’re like, Oh, what kind of lawyer are you? And then eventually, and what I learned early on, this was really key, and I tell our young lawyers this all the time, never tell them what kind of lawyer you are.
[00:12:47] Ray Koenig: You’re a lawyer. And when they ask you what you do, you help people. You help people figure out, you know, get, get the, solve problems, connect them with the solutions, that sort of thing. And then because you don’t want to just pigeonhole yourself. Even if I am, I’m a probate litigator. That’s what I do.
[00:13:01] Ray Koenig: But I want people to think of me as an advisor and counselor first, and I want them to come to me first when they have a problem, and I’m probably going to refer them to somebody else or somebody in my firm at somewhere else, but that way I’m helping them solve problems, they always come back to me, which is really good for my brand, and also really good for bringing in business, and good for developing relationships, all that great stuff.
[00:13:18] Ray Koenig: So I started developing I started just being myself and develop a relationship with people where they thought of me just as an attorney who could help them or help their friends or help their business or help their family. And that’s how they got to know me. And then it was later, Oh, that’s what you do.
[00:13:31] Ray Koenig: Got it. Okay. I have referrals from people now that I met 25 years ago when I helped found the junior board at Heartland Alliance. People that I don’t see regularly, but they still, when they think, Oh, somebody in my life needs a lawyer. And these people are decision makers at big places. They call me first.
[00:13:45] Ray Koenig: Who do you know that can help with this? And I love that. And so that’s, Just by being myself and becoming interesting and their friend and hanging out with them, that led to a business. To add one layer on that, when I was a young attorney, I didn’t, I wasn’t out when I first, as in, I wasn’t out when I first started my old firm, I came out a couple years into it, and that made a thousand times easier, because then I was truly myself, because I would go to events and people would ask about my girlfriend, who you dating, you know, this is back in the late 90s, early 2000s, the world was a little different then, even in, in, in our kind of progressive ghetto of Chicago.
[00:14:22] Ray Koenig: It was, it was still not, I mean, just back Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell days back, you know, before we had marriage equality, anything. So, when I just came out and was myself, that made being my authentic self so much easier that people were just comfortable. And I’ve just, I’ve, I’ve probably come out every other day for the last 25 years, because people assume I’m, I’m straight, unless they’ve, like, heard of me or read about me ahead of time, and then they know I’m not.
[00:14:44] Ray Koenig: Anyway, being myself in that respect made it so much easier. And then that made developing relationships to build a business, a legal business much easier.
[00:14:54] Steve Fretzin: Yeah. And I think I love everything you just said. And I actually have a question about your, about the way that you set it up where you talk about, I’m a lawyer and I help people.
[00:15:03] Steve Fretzin: So the argument for that, you, you had the argument for it, which I thought was brilliant. The argument against it is, Maybe it’s based on the level of relationship and how much time you spend with people. But ultimately, is that memorable? I know a hundred lawyers, so if everyone just says they’re a lawyer, am I going to remember any of them?
[00:15:20] Steve Fretzin: And is it, or is it more about the fact that they liked you, knew you, trusted you, remembered you were a lawyer, and then came to you with some problem versus someone saying, I’m an IP lawyer specifically in this niche so that I’m memorable for that specific thing. Which they may or not ever come across, but I would be at least memorable for something versus maybe be it being too broad.
[00:15:41] Steve Fretzin: So I just wanted to pick on that a little bit and get your, get your, your pros and cons on it.
[00:15:45] Ray Koenig: Well, I do, I actually do. I do both. So when I, when I, when I started out, when I was like a nobody and who’s going to hire a secondary lawyer, you know, I just started out as I, I got a lawyer. I could help you come to me.
[00:15:57] Ray Koenig: I’ve got partners. I can do that. And I still do that when I meet people in public just in general public. If I’m out for dinner or introduced to friends, I’m a lawyer, that sort of thing. But, but then as I’ve matured and I get into when I’m giving presentations or at conferences where there’s more specific audiences.
[00:16:14] Ray Koenig: Okay. Okay. When I’m in a, in a, in a group of estate planners or perpetrators, Sherry’s. Of course, I’m going to say I’m a probate and trust litigator. This is what I do because they understand it. They get it. And I, and I want them to remember that, but it’s more of the general public. I can help you because if you think about it, if you’re not a lawyer, you’ve not worked in legal profession, most people are like, have most people like my background.
[00:16:34] Ray Koenig: Most people didn’t grow up around lawyers. They don’t know. If I said, you could say I’m an IP attorney, and that’s going to scare somebody away because they’re going to be like, you pee? What? At that point or two. What does that mean? Yeah. I do intellectual property, and they’re like, what? Oh, and what is that?
[00:16:47] Ray Koenig: Probate litigation. What is that? You know, so I always tell, my old tagline used to be, we litigate over the 3Ds. Dying, disability, and death, which is and then that diners, drive ins and dives, whatever. Yeah. He stole my thunder. So I can’t do it. But yeah. So I, I get what you’re saying. Okay. I do it.
[00:17:06] Ray Koenig: It’s, it really depends on my audience.
[00:17:07] Steve Fretzin: So what I always recommend lawyers have multiple infomercials, right. Or something that they’re going to say so that, you know, if I meet with a managing partner that’s different than what I say when I meet with an associate different, what I’d meet when I meet with the general public.
[00:17:19] Steve Fretzin: So, I love that answer and I think that makes a lot of sense and, you know, the idea is that you want to be someone that people come to whether it’s something you can help them with or not because that allows you not only to figure out if it’s for you but also how are you going to feed out work to other people that might be the best fit for them versus them finding some random lawyer online that’s not going to really take the best care.
[00:17:41] Ray Koenig: Absolutely. I agree.
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[00:19:48] Steve Fretzin: You know, charities with boards, with civic pursuits that are gonna, that, that, where you can really feel like you’re involved and engaged with people doing something good. And then, but a lot of lawyers are afraid of bringing business into that. And that’s like, they find themselves in the friend zone, where they find themselves just, I don’t want to talk business when I’m here with these people on this great mission.
[00:20:09] Steve Fretzin: How do, how should people, Softly convert that into potential business.
[00:20:16] Ray Koenig: So again, it goes back to when you’re picking a charitable or civic or political interest, something that pick something that you enjoy, pick something that is meaningful to you first and foremost. So if you are really big on if you, if your thing is anti cruelty, animal cruelty, okay, so then there’s a bunch of organizations out there that you can, that, that are in that space.
[00:20:38] Ray Koenig: Start looking at them and say, okay, what events do these people do? Who’s on their board? Who’s involved? Who are their donors? You can, all that stuff is so much more readily available than it used to be. And then pick a board, pick an organization that’s doing the things that you’re really interested in, but at the same time has kind of the audience, the donors, the board members, that are people that you want to get to know for professional reasons as well, because you’re going to go in, walk in with having something in common, you’re going to share this interest, and then over time, hopefully, you’re a good person, you do good work, you find you’re valuable, they get to know you as a person, they get to know you as somebody with good judgment, a good heart, And then you become more friends, and then over time they, you know, start talking more about work.
[00:21:21] Ray Koenig: It’s a slow, long process where you’re both benefiting. And that’s how I think you, you end up talking about business. It’s not, you don’t walk into your first meeting and be like, Hey, I’m a probate lawyer, and let me tell you what I can do for you. Yeah, yeah. No. That’s not it. You come in, you do the work, you hang out.
[00:21:39] Ray Koenig: The first, you know, black tie, you have a few drinks, like, oh, what do you do? Who’s your spouse? He said, and then you start talking about that stuff. And then you get to know each other. That’s the overtime thing. And that’s how you do it. One of the things I always talk about with, also with young associates, and I do a lot of stuff with different law students, and this is kind of a minority opinion, I think, but I don’t believe in work life balance.
[00:22:00] Ray Koenig: I believe in work life integration. There’s no such thing as balance. If you think balance, you’re always going to be trying to get like, am I working too much? Do I have life too much? Do I have family too much? No, you got to do it all. It’s all together. So my, my kids know, a lot of people that are now my friends have been clients for a long time.
[00:22:18] Ray Koenig: And my kids know them as my friends, less than as my clients, but they’re also my clients. And, and, and the same thing with the different political and organizational stuff I’ve been involved in, it’s all together. It’s not like I go home and I turn it off and now I’m just a dad, which is not a bad thing.
[00:22:32] Ray Koenig: I don’t mean to say just a dad. Now I’m a dad. I’m not a daughter. I’m still like when I’m at my kid’s swim meets. I’m talking to people, I’m meeting people, and I’m not going to my kids swim meets to, to, to be a lawyer that’s bringing in business, but you’re meeting people, you’re talking to people, it’s all, it’s all together, and if you think, if you go to a swim meet and you think, oh no, you know, Miss Smith, I do not want to talk to you about your dad’s estate, that’s, that’s something I’m not talking about right now, because I’m here being a father and watching my kids swim.
[00:23:00] Ray Koenig: No, you do it all together. You do it all together. I, one of the things, and I was asked about this the other day, you know, my kids are competitive swimmers. They swim around the country. One of my daughters, who’s 14, just swam, and they live at Trials. And so I, I have to travel a lot for work as well. So I try to blend those things together.
[00:23:19] Ray Koenig: If I, if my kids have a swim meet, and they don’t, but if they’re in Texas, You know, that’s going to be when I need to go to Texas for work reasons. I’m going to see if I can do both of them at the same time and do both. And then sometimes it’s fun. You know, I may end up with colleagues from one of those local offices coming to a swimming with me because they think it’s fun.
[00:23:35] Ray Koenig: Yeah. Like, they’re about fun for about 90 seconds.
[00:23:38] Steve Fretzin: For 90 seconds of the multiple hours that you’re sitting and waiting for the kids to swim.
[00:23:43] Ray Koenig: Yeah, but it is, so it’s, it’s all together though. You gotta, it’s, everything’s integrated. It’s all part of it. You know, and it’s, it’s, I, I just, that works for me. For some people they don’t, cause they don’t feel like they ever turn off.
[00:23:53] Ray Koenig: I guess I, I don’t ever turn off, but I’m
[00:23:56] Steve Fretzin: a, I think you, you probably do, but again, it’s, there’s, you know, times to focus on people, right? Kids and stuff like that. And there’s times where you can integrate it, like you’re saying, and, you know, if I’m, you know, you know, out with my son on a boat and we’re fishing and I’m taking a break because I’m exhausted.
[00:24:13] Steve Fretzin: It’s, it’s, it’s. You know, fishing for muskies or something where it’s just heavy duty, whatever. And I get a call, or I check an email, or whatever, shoot an email. Like, I can do that because I’m just sitting there anyway. I’m just relaxing. It’s downtime for me anyway. It’s brainless in some ways. Or talking to someone is easy.
[00:24:28] Steve Fretzin: We were trolling for walleyes years ago, and my phone rang. It was like 9 o’clock at night. And I picked up, and it was a client of mine, and he just had a question. I’m gonna take that call. I’m with my kid. It’s special time. But you know what? I’m out. We were just sitting there, twirling around on a boat in circles.
[00:24:43] Steve Fretzin: It was no big deal for me to take a call. So I totally get what you’re saying. But here’s the thing I wanted to hit on though, real quick, Ray, is. Yeah. I think there’s a disconnect between joining a board or being involved in something and the social relationships that you can create that could lead to business.
[00:24:59] Steve Fretzin: I think people are just showing up for the board meeting, leaving the board meeting and they’re going, why am I not getting any business from this?
[00:25:06] Ray Koenig: As that is so absolutely correct. It’s funny as I was on the board at Chicago house and social service agency for a decade. I chaired it for the last three years.
[00:25:15] Ray Koenig: I was on the board and I made so many relationships with so many friendships with people there because after our monthly more board meetings, we, at which my firm hosted for many years, we go down the street to Remington’s or the Dearborn and get a couple of drinks afterwards. And, and I developed French.
[00:25:30] Ray Koenig: Some of those friends over, over time became clients, sent me business. Like I can think of one right now who was on the board with me forever. He’s actually an IP client of ours to be thinking about, you know yeah, and he’s, and he’s a very successful and everything he does, but it was because of those relationships.
[00:25:44] Ray Koenig: And some of them just became good friends that have never set any business or have it. And that’s okay. It’s not why I did it, but that’s the benefit of it. And I intentionally chose Chicago house when I first started getting on boards back then. Because of who was on the board and who the people were and because and because also I was passionate about their mission and I still am so I completely review and I’d say that to our associates to know when I come to a social event meet people do you know they don’t want to talk to you like they do they do honestly people.
[00:26:16] Ray Koenig: You walk up to somebody at a party, if they’re standing alone, they are more than happy to talk to you. And you’ll figure out in the first like minute or two, if you have anything in common, and chances are you do, cause you’re both there for a reason and you can at least talk about that. And so I, and, and, and that’s how, again, those things develop.
[00:26:33] Ray Koenig: And I’ve got other associates now where I’ll be like the junior, the next generation of leaders at like some of our bank clients. They’re becoming buddies with them, and I’m encouraging that big way. I got, I got a really, I got a text from one of my associates. I was very jealous. He was at a concert at, at the United Center.
[00:26:49] Ray Koenig: I remember which concert it was, but in the client box. I’m like, but that’s, but that’s the type of thing where they’re hanging out and they’re, they’re going to develop those relationships in 10 years from now. That associate of mine, hopefully he or she is going to get the business that I’m getting now, you know?
[00:27:04] Steve Fretzin: Yeah. And there’s one other piece that we haven’t talked about, but I can tell through, you know, knowing you and also the research I did, leadership in organizations, leadership in demonstrating leadership on a board, in a, in a charity, in a you know, a CBA community, whatever it might be, taking, taking a leadership role, talk about that and how that can also impact Relationships and building a law practice and et cetera, et cetera.
[00:27:30] Ray Koenig: Yeah. So I think it’s really important to work here too. If you get on a board, if you get in a bar association to play a couple different roles, to sit on committees, to learn things, to learn, to watch other leaders, to see what they do, to see who’s successful and who’s not. And then, and then figure out what you want to do.
[00:27:46] Ray Koenig: And then when you figure out what you want to do, if you want to move into a leadership position, which I strongly encourage, you got to, you got to fully commit, you got to be all in because everybody’s watching you. And you’ve got to do the job. You got to do the work. And, but what it does, it, it, it raises your, obviously your visibility.
[00:28:02] Ray Koenig: So I was president of the Chicago Fire Association until June 27th,
[00:28:07] Steve Fretzin: which is a few weeks ago. It’ll be a few weeks ago by the time this airs.
[00:28:10] Ray Koenig: Yeah. And then, and, and and so I, I, and I’d been in leadership positions there for a while and I took it really seriously and it, and it did raise my profile. I mean, Just quantifiably on social media.
[00:28:21] Ray Koenig: My, my profile went, went way up. And so it allows me to amplify a message and talk more about what I do and talk more about things that I care about. And that’s really, really important. But if I had been a leader who did a really bad job, if everybody was taking a big sigh of relief, when I stepped out, when I expanded and be like, God, thank God he’s gone, you know, then people wouldn’t have, it wouldn’t have helped me, it wouldn’t have helped my practice, wouldn’t help my business.
[00:28:45] Ray Koenig: You know, it’s really, and, and, and I think being an authentic. Person being myself acting like who I am allowed me to succeed in that role. Just like it’s allowed me to succeed as you know, the managing partner of Chicago office. I’m on my firm’s executive committee. I do. I I’m co leader of our firm’s global litigation practice group.
[00:29:02] Ray Koenig: Being myself allows me to develop the relationships within the firm and outside the firm that have allowed me to succeed and to, and to really gain the trust of others, because that’s really what the whole game is. And that’s when I talk about, you know, we go back to the. Becoming friends and developing relationships with people on boards or elsewhere, it’s, it’s, it’s developing credibility, you know, as a person, as a good person, and then they think, oh, he must be a good lawyer then too, or at least he’s trustworthy.
[00:29:26] Steve Fretzin: Right on, right on. So the demonstration of leadership skills, the, the social relationship where they really like you.
[00:29:33] Ray Koenig: Yeah.
[00:29:34] Steve Fretzin: It’s hard for not to lead the business if you’re doing those things and I, and that’s, and that’s the point I’m really trying to get across to people is you can’t just show up.
[00:29:41] Steve Fretzin: You’ve got to, you’ve got to do the extra, go the extra mile and, and demonstrate, you know, what you’re capable of because I think that’s going to raise up the profile and raise up the ability to have it as a, as a, as an important part of your life, but also as a potential law law practice builder.
[00:29:57] Ray Koenig: Yeah, I completely agree. And I want to add, there’s a, there’s a corollary to that, that It’s not all about you. What I’ve taken pride in over the years is, sure, I’m happy with the success I’ve had so far, and I’m only 50, so hopefully I’ll have another 10 12 years of this, and other things, but I also always, always, always take time to celebrate other people, and always recognize other people.
[00:30:21] Ray Koenig: That’s one of my it’s one of the things I used to get criticized for a lot, is I didn’t give myself enough credit. I was, I was that, I was that, I was that person that Oprah always talked about, like, putting other people in the spotlight and not putting myself in there, because it felt weird. Now I’m better at it, but I also always recognize other people when they do really well, and I think that’s really important, especially in the age of social media.
[00:30:40] Ray Koenig: The people who I see only posting about themselves on LinkedIn, or Facebook, or Instagram, constantly, That does nothing for me. I, I, yay, great. I’m, I’m glad that you did well, but the ones that are like celebrating others, like, you know, so and so just finished their term as, you know, president of, so they’d had such a great year.
[00:30:58] Ray Koenig: So fantastic doing that, sharing their posts. Really take, if they post something about themselves and you think it was great, elevate it, put a spotlight on it. That means so much to other people as well. And it’s also, it makes it for very selfish reasons. It makes you look good for doing it too. Cause it, you’re making it, it’s not all about you.
[00:31:16] Ray Koenig: And always, always giving credit where credit’s due. That’s such an old adage, but it’s so true. But it just, there’s so many benefits to it. And I, and I think it allows you to, to also, when you’re celebrating somebody else, it’s showing a little bit about your values and what you care about, a little more of your authenticity.
[00:31:33] Ray Koenig: You know, if I think Raymond Rushing, who just finished his year as Cook County Bar Association president, the first open league ever, I think he did a great job. And I did, I’m going to post about it. I’m going to say kick ass job, Raymond. Well done, you know, and, and I value what you did, and I value the CCBA, and I value the CCBA for putting you up front.
[00:31:51] Steve Fretzin: So would we be, so we would be doing the right thing by giving a shout out to Roy Sexton, huh?
[00:31:56] Ray Koenig: We can always give a shout out to Roy, that Roy Roy, our, our heads our marketing for our entire firm. And he is he is the king of Putus and other people
[00:32:07] Steve Fretzin: king of authenticity. That guy is crush on that, on so many levels, but when I think about authentic, I go right to Ro.
[00:32:15] Steve Fretzin: He’s, he’s amazing.
[00:32:16] Ray Koenig: He really is. And he, and he, he provides a really great example for the attorneys in our firm. And then I think especially for the younger ones, and I, I think also for the people that. And our firm that and most of us feel we don’t fit a cookie cutter mold and don’t want to that’s that’s Roy Roy is Roy is who he is and in a really good way.
[00:32:34] Ray Koenig: He’s also really smart and strategic. He does so many things. Well, but he’s just. He’s really good at he’s authentic, but he’s also really good at celebrating other people, which I just, I really appreciate and I respect him. And we also. Full, you know, disclosure, we have a very good friendship. So, you know, he’s 1 of the 1st people to text me or call me when something good happens in my life.
[00:32:54] Ray Koenig: He’s just a great human being.
[00:32:56] Steve Fretzin: Yep. Absolutely. Agreed. And he’s, I think he’s been on the show a couple of times. He’s just one of my favorite people and always so warm and inviting. We’re going to wrap up with our game changing podcast and you’ve got at the bar which is Chicago bar association.
[00:33:10] Steve Fretzin: So, so 32nd review. Why is that a killer podcast?
[00:33:13] Ray Koenig: Cause it’s both local and national at the same time. So it’s put on by the CBA, the Chicago bar association, the current co hosts are Trish rich and John Amarillo, who are both hilarious. Brilliant, incisive funny, funny, funny. And that, but they talk about just different things that are happening within the bar or the nation, and they make it both national and really hyperlocal at the same time.
[00:33:37] Ray Koenig: And I just really, I really appreciate that. I, and it’s just a nice dose of what’s going on in the world.
[00:33:44] Steve Fretzin: Yeah. Fantastic. Well, listen, as we’re wrapping up, I want to thank our wonderful sponsors, of course, Get Staffed Up, Lawmatics, and PymCon coming up. And that’s with, through Rankings. io, our friends over there.
[00:33:56] Steve Fretzin: If people want to get in touch with you, Ray, they want to find out more about Clark Hill, about yourself, what are the best ways for them to find you?
[00:34:03] Ray Koenig: So it’s easy to just go through our firm website and find me, it’s clarkhill. com. That’s the best way. And then you can find me in there. And my email is r k o e n i g at clarkhill.
[00:34:12] Ray Koenig: com. Reach out to me. Email me. I’m always happy to connect.
[00:34:16] Steve Fretzin: Yeah. And really easy to find on on LinkedIn as well. Yeah, I
[00:34:21] Ray Koenig: think. I always forget about that. That’s another way to find me. That’s the way people find me all the time.
[00:34:26] Steve Fretzin: There’s that thing. Hey, thanks for, thanks for coming on the show. I mean, I wanted to get you on for a long time and I was so happy that, that we were able to make this happen because gem after gem after gem of ideas that, that I know lawyers struggle with, not only around authenticity, but how to get people interested.
[00:34:42] Steve Fretzin: More value from the efforts that they are putting out when they’re trying to do their civic duties or get involved and engaged in different types of groups and things like that. So just much appreciated, Matt. Appreciate it.
[00:34:52] Ray Koenig: All right. Thanks, Steve. Have a great one.
[00:34:54] Steve Fretzin: Yeah. And thank you everybody for spending some time with Ray and I today on the Be That Lawyer with podcast.
[00:34:58] Steve Fretzin: And you know, again, continue to try to help you to be more confident, organized in a skilled rainmaker. Take care, everybody. Be safe. Be well. We’ll talk again very soon.
[00:35:11] Narrator: Thanks for listening to Be That Lawyer, life changing strategies and resources for growing a successful law practice. Visit Steve’s website, fretzin.com additional information and to stay up to date on the latest legal business development and marketing trends. For more information and important links about today’s episode, check out today’s show.