Rich Woo: Relationship Based Networking

In this episode, Steve Fretzin and Rich Woo discuss:

  • Establishing habits to accomplish your goals.
  • Creating strong relationships to help those around you.
  • The systems of building a relationship-based network.
  • Wide versus deep in relationship building.

Key Takeaways:

  • There is value in people, relationships, and caring for others. This will help you to become a better relationship person and a better networker.
  • Networks, at the core, are relationships. They happen over a long period of time of care and value exchange, not over single cups of coffee.
  • Have a way to keep in touch with everyone in your network. It doesn’t have to be the same for everyone, but there should be some type of system in place.
  • Powerful networking happens when you get to know the other’s heart and mind, even if you don’t yet know their business.

“I always think about kind of three characteristics that we look for in those specific centers of influences: folks that advocate for you, that have influence, and are connected.” —  Rich Woo

Episode References: 

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Show notes by Podcastologist Chelsea Taylor-Sturkie

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Narrator, Steve Fretzin, Rich Woo, MoneyPenny, Jordan Ostroff, Practice Panther


Rich Woo  [00:01]

I always think about kind of three characteristics that we look for in those specific centers of influences. And that’s a folks that advocate for you that have influenced, and they’re connected.


Narrator  [00:17]

You’re listening to be that lawyer, life changing strategies and resources for growing a successful law practice. Each episode, your host, author and lawyer, coach, Steve Fretzin, will take a deeper dive, helping you grow your law practice in less time with greater results. Now, here’s your host, Steve Fretzin.


Steve Fretzin  [00:39]

Hey, everybody, welcome to be that lawyer. I hope you’re having a lovely day. Today was brutal. Actually, I just had meetings back to back to back to back. And so Rich’s my last meeting today. So you know, I’m going to try to keep my energy up for you, that guy. For you, and welcome.


Rich Woo  [00:55]

Thank you. Thank you for having me on the show.


Steve Fretzin  [00:57]

Yeah. Yeah. My pleasure. We’re gonna have some fun today. And I know there’s gonna be a lot of great lessons. You know, obviously, the goal is helping you be that lawyer, someone who’s competent, organized in a skilled Rainmaker. And if you haven’t figured out what Fretzin does yet, I’ll tell you, we only do two things. We help highly ambitious attorneys figure out how to develop and grow their law practices, with systems with process with language, all the things you never learned in law school, and you’re certainly not learning at the law firm level. And then what we do is we take the highly ambitious successful attorneys who are crushing it, then we put them in our peer advisory roundtables, the rainmakers roundtable, and the business developers roundtable. And we put you with other successful attorneys in a confidential environment, let you guys hammer out problems, hammer out solutions, I bring an amazing guest speakers. So you can check all that out on my website. And that is all I have to say about that. Let’s move on to thank our sponsors. We got legalese money, Penny and practice Panther crushing it for the legal community every single day, check them out, and, and see what they’ve got to say a little later in the show. Rich, you have an awesome quote of the show. And I’m just gonna read it. And I want to ask you why you suggested this, quote, We are what we repeatedly do. Therefore, excellence is not an act, but a habit. So awesome, quote, man. That’s Aristotle. Talk to me about that. Why did you submit that quote? What does it mean to you? Yeah, I


Rich Woo  [02:21]

think that’s an important quote. Because I think on the surface, when people think about it, we think that life is just a bunch of different willful actions that we take throughout the day, right? Like I smile at someone, I say something to someone, I go pick up my lunch, when the reality is 95% or more of what we do is just pre pre rehearsed routine habits that we take, I don’t I don’t think about how to brush my teeth, I don’t think oh my gosh, I gotta say, I love you to my wife and my kids, it just these things naturally happen. And so for me, a lot of life is thinking about how do I build routines and habits into my life so that they’ll play out in action? Versus how do I just, you know, do things on a day to day basis? So yeah, I think habits are like the the cornerstone, the building blocks to everything in life,


Steve Fretzin  [03:13]

it seems like we’re moving away from goals and more towards habits. Like we’re saying, hey, let’s not have like set a big goal for the year, let’s establish incremental improvements and habits that are going to eventually get us to the goal, is that kind of in line with what you’re saying?


Rich Woo  [03:26]

100% I think a lot of times when people you know, accomplish their goals, it’s really a byproduct of having really good habits in place. I think James clear might have said something to the effect of, you know, we don’t rise to the level of our goals, but we always fall to the floor of the habits that we set. And so I think it’s really important to understand, like, what are the different routines in my life? If I’m wondering, hey, you know, why are my teeth yellow? It’s not because Oh, I didn’t brush my teeth, while yesterday. It’s because well, do you brush your teeth at all? Do you drink coffee on a daily basis? These are things that we’re constantly repeatedly doing that ultimately result in something, right? And so I always, you know, when I’m trying to make a change in my life, I don’t think about how do I just do one thing one day, I think about how do I make a systematic change, or routine change, so that I’ll get the desired result, you know, that I’m looking for, you know,


Steve Fretzin  [04:22]

and it’s really a shame that this type of education and habits and building from the ground up isn’t started earlier in life. I feel like I only got into this in my 30s like not it wasn’t I should have been doing this to help get better grades in high school and college. I should have been doing this to whatever to just just build, you know, stronger habits along the way. I kind of was been winging it a long time.


Rich Woo  [04:43]

Definitely. No, I agree with you. I agree with you. But I think you know, there’s a new era of books and materials that are coming out. I mean, James clear has an incredible book atomic habits by Charles Duhigg has another book power of habit that talks a lot about how to make changes in your life and viewing it in this way. But yeah, I think it’s important.


Steve Fretzin  [05:01]

Yeah, no doubt, well, rich Woo, you are the founder of catalyst planning partners. We were introduced by the famous John malonis of CBRE, who’s not only a client of mine, but but he’s been a great friend for many, many years. I know he’s he’s very title. You guys are one highschool buddies. Yeah, we


Rich Woo  [05:17]

actually met in college, became good friends and then eventually stayed in touch became, you know, we both stood in each other’s weddings, and I actually introduced him to his wife. So he’s forever indebted to me. And whenever I need a favor, I can always ask


Steve Fretzin  [05:33]

him when he listens to this, he’ll know, you know, not only are we talking about him, but he owes you more than one. Yeah, just leave it at that. But so after college talk to, you know, the Reader’s Digest on your background and sort of how you came to be and just being a top performer in your space. And one of the top networkers I’ve met, you know, in the last 10 years, so take it away.


Rich Woo  [05:53]

Yeah, you know, so after college, I worked in corporate finance for a couple of big companies, you know, just getting my some experience under my belt. And when I was about 28, I decided to make a shift. And I got into the financial planning and wealth management arena, really, just by introduction from someone I knew I didn’t know anything about the space, I just knew I had a 401k, I probably needed to put more money into it. And, and then, you know, started realizing, wow, this is not only a place where I could use some some of my math and analytical abilities, but it was also people business. And I think most importantly, you know, I could find a sense of purpose in the work that I was doing, you know, you know, the Steve because we know each other, and when I was in high school, my mom passed away, my mom, my dad, and my brother went on a whitewater rafting trip in Wisconsin, and in a freak accident, she ended up drowning in that accident. And that was a big inflection point. For me, I, it made me think about a lot of different things that made me grow up very quickly. It made me understand the importance of relationships. But it also taught me about the importance of planning, and how important that is to a family. And so fast forward, when I was 28, getting into the financial planning business, I said, Wow, this is a way to not just earn a living and have a career. It’s a way to help people with something that I know is really important from firsthand experience. And, you know, the business is all predicated, you know, obviously, a knowledge and delivering a good service. But it’s also predicated on building a good network, right, you need clients. And so, you know, I wasn’t, I didn’t come from some big family with a bunch of money and a bunch of uncles that had a lot of money that they could just become my clients right away, I had to build this thing from the ground up. And to your point about connections, it was all in the beginning about building connections and meaningful connections, that will trust you that can relate to you that could feel like you were going to do a good job for them. So yeah, that was the core of, you know, the start of my new career.


Steve Fretzin  [07:47]

And just to take a step back, I mean, I can totally understand I can’t understand the death of a parent at a young age, but I, my mother was a stroke victim and was paralyzed on her left side. And when I was 1718 years old, you know, everyone misses my high school graduation. And, but you know, so on a dark side, you know, she was a stroke victim, and a paraplegic for 13 years on the stronger side, and I think this is where we align, I had to grow up fast. And I, you know, my other my friends did, you know, they were living fancy free, you know, I had to come home and like, you know, take care of a parent. Now, not full time, that wasn’t my full time job. But you know, if you’re going to be the right son, and you’re going to, you gotta grow up fast. And so I think these things some people never deal with until they’re much older. And when they happen at a young age, I think it does give us a little bit of a head started in, like the maturing and really understanding the value of people relationships, love, caring, taking care of others, I think that maybe is at the heart of where we become either stronger networkers or where we just recently become a stronger relationship people.


Rich Woo  [08:46]

Yeah, I think you’re totally right. Well, you know, sometimes we happen to things. And sometimes things happen to us. And when things happen to us circumstances, like your mother and my mother, it makes you grow up really quickly. And I think in that growing up, sometimes, what seems like the curse and the trial can also be a blessing in disguise, because it’s made you into the person that you are today that can empathize with people. And that had to not screw around when you’re younger, but actually grow up and be responsible and take ownership of things. Because quite frankly, there’s really no other choice. And that’s how it was, for me, I think the blessing in disguise was that it made me grow up, take responsibility for things, care about people in certain ways. It quite frankly, it just made me think about the brevity of life and to really value relationships. That’s not to say that I don’t make real relationship mistakes. But it’s just to say that I have something in the back of my head that says, hey, you never know when this person is going to be gone. And so those things in some ways are blessings, you know, that you just never would have thought of.


Steve Fretzin  [09:48]

Yeah, and so I think maybe that’s part of why I enjoy networking so much is because I am the thrill of connecting the thrill of of trying to make a match and trying to find good people and figure out how to add how And then connect them and I think you feel the same way. In fact, you’ve been set up this amazing, you know, networking group that you run is it in Chicago and out in LA? Are you in LA


Rich Woo  [10:10]

we’re we’re in Chicago, we’re going to get it started up in the LA area say,


Steve Fretzin  [10:13]

Okay, I thought it was amazing. I mean, I was really blown away because I’m like this I’m that people don’t always fit with me and how I how I like to run networking. I’m like, bang, bang, bang, bang, like let’s organize structure this that, you know, everything is timed out everything. Hey, you better not talk more than your allotted time. Like I’m very on the money. Some people love that about me. They get off they go, Holy crap, he ran the hell out of that meeting other people like, wow, he was like a bulldog in there. And he didn’t let me finish my sentence. Well, I tried. I can’t please everybody, but I love the way. Yours was run and relation fact Adam Birnbaum, who’s you know, Adam Verma Yeah, of course, helped me up because he knows I’m a coach. And we’ve been having some side bar conversations about coaching. And I’m kind of advising him a little bit. And it’s been really unfortunate. He always calls me right when I’m fishing with my son, like, I’m about to step on a boat. And we have a meeting scheduled, but like, I totally screw up. I’m like, I got 15 minutes. What do you what do you want to go over? So we’re gonna, we’ll get and get there. But anyway, I want to get into that in a few minutes. But I want to ask you about something. Why do most professionals struggle with networking? It doesn’t work for them, it’s not really getting them, the results they’re looking for? Why do you think that is?


Rich Woo  [11:25]

I think there’s a couple of reasons. The ones that pop into my mind right away is that I think sometimes people, the obvious one is, I think people want immediate results. They think, hey, if I, you know, go out to a couple of coffees and have a couple of conversations, I would have built a great network by now. And that’s not how really networks are built networks are at the core relationships and relationships don’t happen over one coffee, right? They happen over a lifetime of interactions and care and value exchange. So I think, you know, the the surface, you know, level, you know, answer is that I think just people have to be a little bit more patient. I think the other thing that happens in the interactions that you have, I think it’s it’s got you got to form a connection, right? I’m not thinking in those meetings, like, oh, okay, I’m in a networking meeting and like, What can I get out of it and ensure there’s like a give and take element to networking and building, you know, relationships. But I think if people can go into building a network with at the core, a sense of how do I just connect with this person? How do I laugh? How do I cry? How do I think in this in this conversation? How do I make those three things happen? Then you have a lasting connection, then when you reach out to that person near? And you say, hey, you know, I was thinking maybe there’s some some business that we can do together, or I wanted to invite you to this thing. They’re not like, Wait, who is that guy? They go, Oh, my God, that was an awesome conversation. We thought, we laughed, we cried, we built something even that short period of time. Yeah, I want to stay in touch with this person. And so I think that you got to it builds over time. And I think you got to build a genuine connection with somebody.


Steve Fretzin  [12:58]

Yeah, I think it’s very hard to refer people without knowing who they are at their guts, without know without knowing that either. They’re good at what they do. Yes, that’s like the that has to be the baseline if they suck at what they do. Very difficult to refer at that absolute time. But if they’re good at what they do, they’ve got a good heart. They understand they demonstrate empathy, they understand that they, they sort of get it. But I think the problem that most lawyers have, and professionals in general, is they don’t really have any structure process of how to facilitate or to manage those meetings in a way where they can learn who’s in there going to be in their camp and who’s not.


Rich Woo  [13:36]

Yeah, that’s right. I think systems are so important. And even building relationships. Sometimes people think of it as too methodical or hey, you know, like this, these are relationships, you shouldn’t put, if you’re going to build a network, a network is more than five or 10 people network, a network can be 100 or 1000s of people. And so if you don’t have a system, to follow up with people, stay in touch with people, good luck and try to build like a coherent network, you might have met a lot of people over coffee, but you might have a bunch of meaningless interactions that you’re that’s not going to bring value to them. And it’s not gonna bring any value to you, right. And so, you know, for me, as I think about networking, and building my network, I think about a it takes time, hey, let’s build a genuine interaction. But how do I continue to build upon the interaction with some of these people? Now, some of it is easy, some of it some of these people that I want to build a relationship with. It’s easy because they’re my clients, right? So we have systems in place to say, Hey, we got to reach out to this client, it’s time for the review. They also happen to be my friend. So that’s easy, right? I don’t have to do anything. The business does that for me. Right? But then there’s other people that are not my clients that I want to stay in touch with that require some systematic interaction with and some of that happens, because they’re good friends and I have them on my Fe 15 list on my phone. And I’m like when I have some downtime, I look at my Fe 15 list. These are my 15 people, my closest friends and Bam, we, I’ll shoot them a text, I’ll give them a call, send them a voice message. Then there’s other things that I have in place, like, to your point, the Jeffersonian dinner that I host, that’s a catch all, they’re not my clients, they might not be my best friends. But these are people that I really value and I want to stay in touch with Oh, good. The dinner that sends the invite out automatically keeps them connected to me. So, again, I do I have the same system for every person and staying in touch with them. No, but do I have a way to keep in touch with someone? So it’s not like, Oh, you’re my best friend. But oh, darn, I haven’t seen you in three years. No, I have a much more intentional way about interacting with people. Just a quick aside, I, I was meeting up with a friend of mine, and he invited one of his good friends out and we’re all chatting, and I was like, Oh, cool. You guys are good friends. How long have you guys been friends? He’s like, 1213 years. And I said, Wow, you guys are really good friends. He’s like, Yeah, like our wives or friends or kids or friends. I said, awesome. So like, what are you like, how often do you guys see each other and they look at each other. And they go, I don’t know, maybe like once or twice a year. And I was like, Look, you know, you guys are raising kids. It’s a busy too. I don’t expect you guys to be hanging out every week. But like, you guys are really close. You see each other once. So in 10 years, you’re gonna see each other 10 times. Yeah, I don’t know, you’re going to end up seeing your colleagues 10 times as much as your best something like the math doesn’t work for me. And I think what they weren’t lacking intention or closeness. I think they were just lacking like an you know, some sort of way to guess in system. That system. Hey, we play in a fantasy basketball league together. Hey, we go out to dinner once a month. And we get babysitters because the friendship is valuable. And so I think much too often, we just kind of leave it to chance with good intention. And that doesn’t produce outcomes that people really like. Yeah.


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Steve Fretzin  [18:14]

I’ve got a neighbor who I mean, he’s probably six blocks from me, but he’s my best friend from college in high school. And now listen, yeah, I mean, we talk maybe every couple of weeks, we get together maybe once a quarter, maybe less what I like to get Yeah, I’d like to golf with him. I’d like to hang with him drinks with him and all that. But he’s got his life. I’ve got my life and they don’t always, you know, we play sports at different levels. I’m very good. He’s terrible. So, you know, we got those kinds of things going on. But you’re right. And I you know, and I always say this is the the rub. I say to him, I go, his name’s Dave. I go, Dave, look, you’re the one with the busy schedule. I’m free every night. I’m free on weekends, I’ve got nothing but time and you tell me when I’m there, you want to golf, you want to drink you want to whatever, let me know, then then, you know, crickets. And so it’s like, that’s, that’s where I feel like it’s, you know, there’s a little bit of difficulty there because we need to align on something. So I don’t know what that is. Maybe I get it to get a permanent tee time or something. But, you know, one thing I wanted to ask you about because you’re meeting a lot of people, through your dinners and through just your network and your clients and all that stuff. But I feel like you’re someone that goes deep, not wide. So a Can you define what that means deep versus wide. And then how you why you feel that why deep is better than why does it relates to your network?


Rich Woo  [19:30]

That’s such a good question. I don’t know if deep is better than wide in all circumstances. I think some of it depends on what your objective is. And like what time of your life you’re in, I think in my 20s and 30s when I’m trying to learn gather experiences, kind of you know, I don’t know anyone and I’m trying to meet people I think it’s sometimes appropriate to go wide. I don’t I don’t think you should you know, you’re 22 right at a college. Just hang out with two people and like shut everyone else out. You know,


Steve Fretzin  [19:57]

especially if you’re looking for business. You’re looking to build a network. 100 Because you can’t go deep on five, six people, there’s got to be a branding component of the masses that you can figure it out.


Rich Woo  [20:07]

That’s right at 41. I think, to me at this stage and where I’m at in my career and not needing to meet 1000s of new people, I think, why it is probably more important than deep, although I still meet new people, you know, I would say, I’m trying to spend about 80% of my time with 20% of the people that I know, you know, kind of the Pareto principle, and then the reverse, like, 20% of my time with just meeting the other 80% of people I don’t know, right. And so, I think that I think that deep is important, because I don’t know, there’s a period of my life when I was in my 30s. And, you know, I kind of built my career, my book of business and things were going well. And I was like, Man, I know a lot of people. But like, you know, If I don’t reach out to people, no one’s calling me on the weekends, right? And I’m like, why is that? And I think I gave off air that like, oh, like, I’m just always busy. And when I’m not busy, I’ll reach out to you, right, whether intentionally or not, I just kind of give off that air. And I was like, you know, I think I need to make a change. I don’t want to wake up at 60 being like, okay, yeah, people respond to me, only when I reach out to them. And no one’s really thinking about me, because they think, oh, Richard is busy, or he doesn’t have time for me or something like that. And so I made kind of a choice and intentional decision to say, hey, I want to go back. Who are the people that I want to do my life with? And how do I invest more time with these people. And I thought back to some of my high school friends, who we’d be friends, a lot of us went to high school together, college together, we were friends after college, but there was kind of a fall off, you know, because a lot of them got married, and I was still single at the time, and they had kids. So I want to go back, those are the friends that I wanted to live with. Because eventually I’m going to get married and have kids too. And I love these guys. And so I would try would make an extra effort. I was in the city, they were all living in the suburbs with kids and single guy on the weekends, not going out and hanging out with my single friends, I would go up and I would spend time with them and their kids, sometimes just their kids, because they’re like, Hey, watch my kids, I’m just gonna sit back and watch, I’m like I was I’m here to see you. And you know what that’s paid off dividends. Because five, six years later, you know, I eventually got married, and I have two kids of my own. Like, those are the friends that I invested in. And those are the friends that I want in my life. And those are the friends that I’m going to have in the next 20 3040 years. And because of the intentionality around me pursuing those friendships and said, Hey, I could go out and meet a bunch of new people. Or I could spend more time with these people that I already know. We have much deeper and more meaningful relationships. I don’t think it’s just also about spending time with people. I think that’s step one, you got to spend time with people for anything to happen. But I think it’s also what do you do in that time? Right. And so I made it a point to say, hey, I don’t want to just ask about the birds and the bees and how the Cubs do great. Let’s talk about that for a couple minutes. Hey, man, how are things going man? Like really? Like, Hey, how’s your man? Is there something that I could be thinking about you for? You know, you know, you know, praying for you about or helping you out with Matt, anything, nothing’s off limits. And also, and let me be a little vulnerable. Here’s some of the things that I’m struggling with. So in creating some of that deeper level discussion, being vulnerable, first, asking, Hey, is there something that’s on your mind, man, I want to be here for you. I think it just like unlocked a new level of relationship that I just never had before. Because it’s kind of like, when you’re watching the game wants to bring that up, or it’s a little awkward, or you don’t know. But when you do that, you just realize, man, there’s a whole nother level to relationships that you just never knew you just had to get a little uncomfortable, you know, and so I have


Steve Fretzin  [23:38]

the opposite problem. Rich people just start telling me all their problems. And I’m like, I just wanted I just was asking for a light now I’m just kidding. But yeah. Who are you? And why are you talking to me? By the way, just another side note, in case you guys didn’t pick up on this about five minutes three minutes ago, the key to success in networking is to babysit for your married friends. Oh, 100%. That’s it, you do that one time and you you’ll know you’ll have more business and you can have


Rich Woo  [24:02]

and when you want to scale it up and you hire the babysitters, and then then you have an incredible business


Steve Fretzin  [24:07]

we Yes, we have a new a new business development tool book that’s coming out Rich and I are gonna co author it baby sitting to build business. And that’s coming out in 2023. All right, so we have an idea here that it’s about, yes, go why to build the network, and then go deep to invest in the people that are while I would add also that I tried to, you know, I can have lots of friends friends are great. All right, but there are there are also people who are more likely to refer us than others. And I think sometimes we miss we miss the big picture about if I’m a financial adviser or wealth advisor, okay. Then divorce attorneys, estate planning, attorneys, therapists, whatever it might be, there might be certain people that are more likely or inclined to need and refer me to their clients and their people they know than others and I think we want to also be cognizant of building relationships. is important, but we also want to have maybe, you know, some specific, you know, people that we’re going to target, you know, some specific targets that we want to also keep in mind too, right?


Rich Woo  [25:09]

Yeah, absolutely. I think you’re talking about centers of influences, people that can, you know, directly refer you business in a meaningful way. And where those people respond, I always think about kind of three characteristics that we look for in those specific centers of influences. And that’s a folks that advocate for you, that have influenced, and they’re connected. And those three elements are really important, because if one of them is missing, so for example, hey, they advocate you advocate for you, and they have influence over their friends. They know to people, okay, that that’s like, they need to be connected, okay, they’re connected, and they have influence over those people. They don’t advocate for you. So what does that help you with? So those three elements are important in whatever center of influence that you’re looking for. For us, it’s like, estate planning attorneys. CPAs. Because inbuilt in that is already kind of that influence and connected, kind of trusted adviser. Oh, right. Yeah, trusted advisors. But you know, they can also be clients of yours that meet a lot of people that advocate for you. And they’re influential over those people. And so that’s kind of what helps us identify key connections for our business.


Steve Fretzin  [26:18]

Yeah, I think that’s a really great takeaway. I love that. And I think one thing that I wanted to, I’ll kind of wrap up on this, and then the game changing book, because the time just flew. Obviously, when we get into this stuff, I want you to just share a little bit about the Jeffersonian dinner, because I think people are so used to going to the Chamber of Commerce, the BNI to the tip, and we’ve got pro visors, we’ve got all these different structured, business focused networking groups, and then there’s what you’re doing.


Rich Woo  [26:47]

Yeah, thanks for asking. So the genesis of the Jeffersonian dinners was, you know, before, so maybe about six or seven years ago, I used to run what I call the executives breakfast. So I would get executives, entrepreneurs, business owners together that I knew together for breakfast, 20 or 30, people would come we would share ideas, opportunities, investment deals, just a network, right. And what I found was, it was great, I met a lot of great people generated some business from it stayed in touch with important people. But I was only having like, 32nd conversations with like, 30 people, and which was fine at the time. But when I got to, you know, my 40s, I was like, Well, I don’t need to meet another 1000 people, you know, I want to actually go deeper with all the people I already know. And so I created I found this kind of model that was out there and put my little twist on it, the Jeffersonian dinner format, and the dinner, the power and the dinners, a couple of things. Number one, you got invite great people, right, great people who, you know, are doing really interesting things that are kind and generous, like, so that the core of the dinner is like getting good people into the room. But the format of the dinners, I think where a lot of the power comes from in that there’s a topic in advance. So it’s almost like a mastermind session like, and that topic can be personal, it can be something for your business, it can be like a how has technology impacted you in an influential way, or who is someone that’s really important in your life that, you know, influence you a lot. So it’s one topic in advance, so people think about it. And then one person speaks at a time. And what happens in that dynamic is that it’s not the loud person who talks a lot that everyone just has to listen to. And it’s not just a bunch of the side conversations with people to the left or the right. It’s everyone focuses on one person, the loud person, the quiet person all gets to speak, you get to learn, you also get to be heard. And I found the outcome of that sort of dinner format with great people was just incredible. Yeah. And to your point about like networking, I never really saw this as like a networking dinner. But interestingly enough, sometimes when you approach a community and have a really good program, the vibe natural byproduct is incredible networking, because guess what, after everyone’s, like sharing their heart out about something personal. People are like, Hey, man, what do you do for a living? What? Like, I feel like I’ve known you for years. Can we do some visit? Like, can we follow up on another guy? What do you even do? And I think that’s where powerful networking happen. So it’s an unintended but like a byproduct result of what we’re trying to do through the dinners. You get to


Steve Fretzin  [29:13]

know their heart and you get to know their mind. And then the outcome is, this is someone I want to keep in touch with. This is someone I want to do business with. This is someone you know, I don’t want to you know, just, you know, move on, I want to actually stay involved in this with this person or these people. I just found it I just found it eye opening. And I’ve been to a lot of run a lot of meetings. I’ve been to a lot of meetings. This was by far the most interesting. And of course, you know, I’m a skeptic because everybody’s running shitty meetings and their net drag out and they don’t want anymore yeah, there’s another one No, it was set up by it was set up so well. I knew going into it was gonna be quality. I just didn’t really know what I was walking into. And then, you know, two hours later, I was like, wow, yeah, totally nailed it. I pre kudos to you on that, man.


Rich Woo  [29:57]

I appreciate you sharing that we always think about it. It’s like a mastermind. group meets like a men’s men’s recovery group.


Steve Fretzin  [30:03]

And the only thing is I, you know, 51 years old I was by far the oldest person in the room, everybody there was in there like, they’re like millennials, 30s, and whatever and I was at, but I love that I was like, I don’t ever get to hang out with these people that are in this group of young, you know, entrepreneurs and professionals that are really driving. It was anyway, it was very refreshing. And like everything that they say about millennials, totally the opposite with this group. These were all not that they I wouldn’t say anything positive or negative about millennials. It’s just they get a bad rap. And reality is that the group that I met like, these were people that were the opposite of that they were that’s awesome touch with them touch with they wanted to be they were caring they were it was nothing what I’m not going to get it deeper that millennials. All right, man, I gotta take a breath. So let’s wrap up with your game changing book give and take by Adam Grant. And I have not read that I’ve seen Adam Grant, I think on some videos and Ted Talks and stuff like that. But what talk about that book and why It’s Your Game Changing book.


Rich Woo  [31:01]

Man, there’s so many good books out there. So it was hard to pick and I would say I would say my book that’s coming out. But it’s not released yet. So stay tuned. I titled this podcast. There you go. Power of the power of connections podcast, Quick Shout, I


Steve Fretzin  [31:15]

love I listened the first episode. And I was like, whoa, this thing in six months. I mean, it was already good, right? aloneness. But I can see in six months where this is gonna go? It’s gonna be a fireball.


Rich Woo  [31:25]

Thank you. I appreciate that. Yeah, the book give and take, I think is a really important one. Because, you know, the whole book is about three different types of people, givers, takers, and matchers. And you give the theme away and you won’t still be able to read the book and get a lot out of it. But givers give takers take and match his match. And so he you know, the beginning of the book talks about like this, this bell curve, like, and the least successful people they found more givers. So you know, naturally you think okay, well, there’s takers and matchers, who’s on the other end of the bell curve. So who’s who’s most successful? Is it the takers and the metrics is actually neither. On the other end of the bell curve, the most successful people even though the least successful people are also givers. The difference between the least successful most successful people, even though they’re both givers, is the way in which they give givers that give get taken advantage of their doormats. Those are the people that don’t succeed, they’re the person that hey, I give you my homework, I don’t ask for back because I’m too weak. And then I end up getting an F on the test and you end up doing well. The givers that give they give intelligently, man that’s easily nailed. Those are the ones that actually succeed most in life. These are the people that you hear about that are like running incredible corporations. And they’re like, so kind and generous to their employees. And they’re not these tyrants. And you know, and so I think that’s just like at the core of what I want to become, right? I’m not saying I’ve mastered that, or have become that yet, but I’m trying to how do I give generously? How do I give wisely? How do I give in a strategic way as to build other people up, and thereby reap the results that come from that?


Steve Fretzin  [32:59]

Yeah, that book wasn’t around in 2004 is my guess. Because when I started networking, I was a doormat. I mean, I was it was a Karma building exercise. I helped everybody in such a manner that I had, you know, I had given 1000 times what I take in. And it was wonderful from a Karma building exercise. And from everybody like Steve, but from a standpoint of getting business. And actually, I didn’t do it with intelligence I didn’t do with process and metadata. Fortunately, I now have all those methods and all that stuff. Like I wrote the book, the book, I did write the book. It’s called the attorneys networking handbook. Everybody can pick it up on Amazon. But it starts off saying nobody has wasted more time networking that I had, I was the master of wasting time and three hour marathons with Amway salesman and Avon, ladies, and you name it, right. And so it is all about giving with intelligence and method and with systems. And that’s really what you can learn from a book you can learn from a coach, learn from someone like rich who’s who’s out there to help others. Just awesome, man, thank you so much. This has been just a wonderful, you know, entertaining for me. I mean, I just I’m just enjoying. I could be two hours if you if you want to babysit me. Yeah.


Rich Woo  [34:11]

We got to build that company together that,


Steve Fretzin  [34:14]

by the way, minimum. Yeah, that’s a book to be read. And we’re gonna trademark that right now. Make sure no one else steals it. There you go. I


Rich Woo  [34:22]

just want 10% removed. All right,


Steve Fretzin  [34:24]

we’ll work it out. 6% Thanks again, man. I just appreciate you and I hope you can if people want to reach out to you. They want to learn about Jeffersonian dinners. They want to learn about how you know how to work with the soon to be famous, rich, woo. How do they do that?


Rich Woo  [34:37]

Yeah, please email me reach out to me. I’m easy to reach. So please feel free to reach out to me email me check us out on our website. Yeah. So on our check our podcast out


Steve Fretzin  [34:46]

definitely check out the podcast if you want to get to know Rich better and all the information in the show notes. But thanks a lot, man. I appreciate it. All right. Thanks, Steve. And thank you everybody for spending some time with Rich and I today if you didn’t get a couple of solid takeaways, I think you might be sleeping while you’re dry. If you’re walking your dog or whatever the heck you’re doing right now. But, you know, this is the kind of stuff that you need to really take in and internalize because it’s the difference between winging it and struggling for years trying to build a network and trying to develop business and the right relationships, or doing it with intention and purpose and systems that are going to get you over the finish line in a much much faster way than it took me even because I mean, I struggled for a number of years before I got it together so you know, anything we can do to help you be that lawyer on this show someone who’s confident organized in a skilled Rainmaker, we’re going to do so be safe be Well, everybody, we will talk again soon.


Narrator  [35:42]

Thanks for listening to be that lawyer. Life changing strategies and resources for growing a successful law practice. Visit Steve’s website For additional information, and to stay up to date on the latest legal business development and marketing trends. For more information and important links about today’s episode, check out today’s show notes