In this episode, Steve Fretzin and RJon Robins discuss:
- Understanding the business side of law firms
- Common challenges in growing a law firm
- Overcoming financial and operational hurdles in law practice
- Personal development and mindset in law firm success
Key Takeaways:
- Law schools fail to teach essential business skills, leaving lawyers unprepared for running a firm, particularly in areas like marketing and financial management.
- Law firm success depends on mastering key fundamentals such as marketing, sales, staffing, and financial controls, rather than using overcomplicated strategies.
- Inconsistent marketing leads to major issues like cash flow problems and bar grievances, making continuous marketing crucial for a stable practice.
- Profit goes beyond money and includes value gained in decisions, relationships, and time management, encouraging a holistic approach to firm management.
“The job of the lawyer is to perform legal services……The business of a law firm, however, is to market legal services, sell legal services, deliver the legal services, and get paid.” — RJon Robins
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Episode References:
The Four Agreements: A Practical Guide to Personal Freedom by Don Miguel Ruiz: https://www.amazon.com/Four-Agreements-Practical-Personal-Freedom/dp/1878424319
About RJon Robins: RJon Robins is an 8-figure entrepreneur, licensed attorney, and bestselling author. He founded How To Manage A Small Law Firm in 2009 while flat broke. Since then, he has achieved 8,000% revenue growth and now has over 600 members. Operating in multiple countries, RJon works about 90 days a year and spends the rest launching new ventures. He speaks to thousands of law firm owners annually, helping them redefine profit and break free from the belief that suffering is necessary for success.
Connect with RJon Robins:
Website: https://howtomanageasmalllawfirm.com/
Show: RJon Robins: From The Vault: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/rjon-robins-from-the-vault/id1635177206
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/rjonrobins/
& https://www.linkedin.com/company/how-to-manage-a-small-law-firm-com
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/rjonrobins2
& https://www.facebook.com/HowToManageASmallLawFirm
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/rjonrobins/ & https://www.instagram.com/howtomanageasmalllawfirm/
Connect with Steve Fretzin:
LinkedIn: Steve Fretzin
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Email: [email protected]
Book: Legal Business Development Isn’t Rocket Science and more!
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FULL TRANSCRIPT
[00:00:00] Steve Fretzin: Hey listeners, I know you’re getting a ton of amazing tips from our expert guests here on the show, but keeping track of them can be a challenge. I know that. That’s why I’ve created Blogcasts, the perfect way to capture the best insights from every episode. Each Blogcast condenses an entire show into a two page summary packed with key takeaways that you can apply right away.
[00:00:21] Steve Fretzin: Head over to Fretzin. com slash blog to start reading, learning, and taking action. Let these blog casts help you on your journey to be that lawyer with Fretzin. Now enjoy the show
[00:00:35] Narrator: You’re listening to be that lawyer life changing strategies and resources for growing a successful law practice Each episode your host author and lawyer coach Steve Fretzin Will take a deeper dive helping you grow your law practice in less time with greater results Now, here’s your host Steve Fretzin
[00:00:56] Steve Fretzin: Well, hey everybody welcome back to the be that lawyer with We are here for your amusement and pleasure and education twice a week, every week to help you to be that lawyer, someone who’s confident, organized and a skilled rainmaker.
[00:01:10] Steve Fretzin: And you know, part of what I try to do is bring on guests that are going to delight you and really give you insights that you’ve never had before. And today is a special one. This is a gentleman who I’ve admired from afar. I’ve kind of been observing, by the way, the only person I ever knew that like wrote out The entire like search of his business.
[00:01:27] Steve Fretzin: And I don’t know if you named your company are John after how to manage a law firm so that you would, cause that’s what people would type into Google. But if that’s what you did, that’s fricking brilliant.
[00:01:36] RJon Robins: Well, you know, practical and pragmatic outperforms clever every time.
[00:01:42] Steve Fretzin: Yeah. So I can come up with a name like Kretson Inc.
[00:01:45] Steve Fretzin: No one’s searching. Say again.
[00:01:48] RJon Robins: I was just saying how to manage a small law firm. It says what it is. It is what it says. It leaves nothing to mystery.
[00:01:57] Steve Fretzin: So should I rename my business from Fretzin Inc to I Suck at Business Development, Somebody Please Help Me? Is that the new name?
[00:02:05] RJon Robins: Well, if you say that, then they might think that you suck at business development.
[00:02:08] RJon Robins: Oh, okay. That’s not true.
[00:02:09] Steve Fretzin: All right. That’s a good point.
[00:02:11] RJon Robins: Could be called the guy who helps lawyers develop more business for their law firms. That would be a long name.
[00:02:18] Steve Fretzin: Okay. Well, we’re going to run that by my team.
[00:02:21] RJon Robins: For years, I had the, the email address was always, you know, name at how to manage a small law firm.
[00:02:27] RJon Robins: com. And I think we had like, 40 or 50 employees and they basically staged a coup years ago and demanded a different email address because it was
[00:02:38] Steve Fretzin: too complicated.
[00:02:38] RJon Robins: So I went out and I bought howtomanage. com also, just so I could have a shorter email address.
[00:02:45] Steve Fretzin: Yes. I love it. Well, we have to make adjustments.
[00:02:47] Steve Fretzin: That’s a part of it. So, hey everybody, as we jump in and we’re going to get to know Arjan real well today on the show. You’ve probably heard of him at some way, shape or form, or you’ve actually worked with him, but let’s start off with a quote of the show, which we love to do, which is If you do not change direction, you may end up where you’re heading.
[00:03:02] Steve Fretzin: That allows you, quote, and that, why’d you submit that? I’m interested in your take on that quote.
[00:03:09] RJon Robins: I mean, I think it’s self explanatory and obvious, but it’s one of those things that people, they just don’t stop and think about it, right? You wake up and you do the same thing day after day, week after week, year after year, you wake up five, 10, 20 years into your career and.
[00:03:32] RJon Robins: You wind up exactly where you should have known you were gonna wind up. It’s very, very predictable, right? The business of running a law firm, you know, there’s, there’s all these people out there who want to give you their 17 point plan and how to law firms are very simple businesses to run. Right. And this breaks the heart of so many struggling law firm owners who want to say that the reason my law firm is struggling is because it’s so complicated.
[00:04:01] RJon Robins: I’m sorry to break it to you. It’s not complicated. Law firms are very simple businesses to run and the results are very predictable, good and bad. And if you don’t stop heading in the same direction, you’re going to wind up where you’re going to wind up.
[00:04:22] Steve Fretzin: It’s predictable
[00:04:23] RJon Robins: where you’re going
[00:04:23] Steve Fretzin: to wind up.
[00:04:23] RJon Robins: Nothing changes. It’s
[00:04:24] Steve Fretzin: unpredictable.
[00:04:25] RJon Robins: Well, that’s not true. That’s not true. Okay. That’s one of the big lies that struggling law firm owners love to hide behind because things are changing, right? Your children are getting older. Your life is passing you by. The world keeps turning. The market is changing.
[00:04:45] RJon Robins: Client tastes are changing. Client preferences are changing. And, you know, today. Everything that’s working in your marketing today could stop working tomorrow. All it takes is one celebrity to do one stupid thing that gets all over the zeitgeist. And now that’s all that everyone’s talking about. And nothing that you were doing that was working before is working tomorrow.
[00:05:09] RJon Robins: I’ve been around doing this since 1999. I’ve lived through, I’ve lost count of how many apocalyptic shakeups in the legal industry where one minute, you know, all of this stuff works in your marketing and boom, Google decides to change their algorithm. Does anyone remember Penguin? Penguin? No. Sorry? No.
[00:05:35] Steve Fretzin: You don’t?
[00:05:35] Steve Fretzin: I don’t know Penguin. I mean, I know of penguins, they’re great at the zoo. Penguin
[00:05:40] RJon Robins: was, was the apocalypse of 2010, where half of the digital online marketers literally went out of business overnight, when Google changed their algorithm and nothing worked.
[00:05:57] Steve Fretzin: Okay.
[00:05:58] RJon Robins: See, I don’t know about that. Yeah. I have a friend who was in that business.
[00:06:01] RJon Robins: And he literally called all his clients and said, I’m really sorry. I can no longer help you. Nothing that I know how to do works anymore. Wow. And he got sued over it. Oh boy. He’s like, I’m telling you the truth. Other marketers are continuing to take money from their clients and blow smoke up their ass.
[00:06:18] RJon Robins: Even though the whole landscape has changed. Anyway.
[00:06:21] Steve Fretzin: We, we digress, we digress, but we’re going to take a deeper dive into, into helping lawyers, you know, live their best lawyer life, but let’s go back and hear a little bit about your background. And for those listening, Arjan Robbins, co founder of How to Manage a Small Law Firm.
[00:06:35] Steve Fretzin: Give us the Reader’s Digest version for those who know what Reader’s Digest was. I’ve
[00:06:39] RJon Robins: been there. I’ve done that. I’ve done it all. I’ve been doing it. I mean. Let’s talk about what your audience wants to know about. How can we help them grow their law firm? How can we help them make more money? How can we help them, you know, get their law firm to work for them?
[00:06:54] RJon Robins: And then if you really want me to tell my story, oh, I’ll indulge and tell my story. I started off and then I did this and then I did that. Who cares? You want to know what I can do for you. No, you wanna know what me and my team can do for you? You really want me to tell my story? I will, but please, can we do it to
[00:07:12] Steve Fretzin: you?
[00:07:12] Steve Fretzin: Well, it’s not a story. It’s like, you know, are you a lawyer? I think you’re a lawyer. All right. So that’s important for some people. Other, other people. Like look, I went
[00:07:18] RJon Robins: to, I went to law school. I learned all the same things in law school, that everyone in your audience learned in law school about the business of running a law firm, which is nothing.
[00:07:27] RJon Robins: In fact, if they taught us just nothing in law school about the business of running a law firm. It would have been so much better because at least we would have known that we didn’t know anything about the business of running a law firm. But instead what they teach us in law school is they tell us just be a good lawyer and everything else will just magically take care of itself.
[00:07:42] RJon Robins: And this is because the law schools are principally endowed and funded, endowed and funded by big law firms and big law firms need, you know, grist for the mill, right? Right. And they don’t want their associates to know anything about the business or running a law firm. And they don’t want their associates to know anything about rainmaking and generating business because the big law firms know, and if you have an empowered associate who can generate their own business and knows how to run the business of a law firm, why the hell do you need to go and work 2000 hours a year working for a big law firm?
[00:08:15] RJon Robins: I graduated from law school, I worked for a federal bankruptcy judge, I opened my own law firm, and bam, I fell on my face. Why did I fall on my face? I fell on my face because I didn’t know anything about the business of running a law firm. I didn’t know about marketing law firm. I didn’t know about sales.
[00:08:28] RJon Robins: I didn’t know about how to hire, train, manage, make a profit with staff. I didn’t know about how to document processes and systems and procedures so that the business could actually, so the systems could do the work instead of just doing the work by sweat alone. I didn’t know anything about financial controls.
[00:08:43] RJon Robins: I didn’t know about any of my pricing strategy. I didn’t know anything about the business or running a law firm. And very predictably going back to the quote we talked about at the top of the show, my law firm was a disaster. It was not a successful law firm. There have been. There have been hundreds and hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of million and multi million dollar and multi multi multi million dollar law firms that I have had a hand in building and thousands that my team has had a hand in building over the past 10 plus years that we started How to Manage a Small Law Firm.
[00:09:16] RJon Robins: But me, myself, personally, R. John Robbins, I never had a successful law firm. I am the cautionary tale. I am the one who tells you don’t do what I did when I started and ran my own law firm.
[00:09:28] Steve Fretzin: Right. So how do you go from that to not only, you know, building this massive business that you have, but then also like coaching law firms all over the country, all over the world to be successful?
[00:09:39] RJon Robins: So I discovered that the Florida bar had at the department at the time, and unfortunately they no longer have it. But at the time the Florida bar had the law office management assistant service and the law office management assistant service was created back in 1980 when the Florida bar realized that they were prosecuting more lawyers for bar grievances that were caused by law firm management problems than anything else.
[00:10:06] RJon Robins: 54 percent of the bar grievances that get filed nationally, and not coincidentally 54 percent of the malpractice actions too, trace back to an avoidable law firm management problem. Marketing problems lead to bar grievances. Sales problems lead to bar grievances. And I don’t mean because they violate the bar rules when it comes to marketing.
[00:10:27] RJon Robins: Okay, but you turn the marketing on, you turn the marketing off, turn the marketing on, you turn the marketing off, you turn the marketing on, and you turn the marketing off, then you’re broke, then some freaking lunatic walks in the door with a case you’ve got no business touching, and they’re flying the lunatic flag all over the place, but you’re desperate for cash flow, because you turned the marketing off six months
[00:10:47] Steve Fretzin: ago!
[00:10:49] RJon Robins: And now you take the case, fast forward, predictably, you wind up with a bar grievance. This is predictable stuff. Law firms are simple businesses to run. I understand that there’s a whole industry of people who want you to believe that they’re complicated and they’re hard and they’ve got these complicated multi step plans.
[00:11:07] RJon Robins: There’s only seven main parts of every successful law firm. There’s only seven main parts of every unsuccessful law firm. There’s no secret. Anyway, I’m calling the Florida Bar for help, and I’m just egregiously abusing my privileges of access to this free resource. I mean, just shamelessly calling them for help, and I’m describing the problems that I’m having, and they’re telling me, not in these exact words, but essentially what they’re saying is, yeah, what did you expect?
[00:11:36] RJon Robins: And don’t worry, no one’s going to name this, name this problem after you, right? These are very predictable problems with very predictable causes with very predictable solutions and they told me what to do and I did it and things got better. And then I called again and I said, here’s my next one and they told me to do and I did it and things got better.
[00:11:56] RJon Robins: And eventually, long story short, I ended up getting recruited by that department and I became the first and still today, the only lawyer in the history of the state of Florida, which is the fourth largest state bar in the country. Thank you. to serve as a full time small law firm management advisor with the Florida Bar and Law Office and Management Assistance Service, which is where I get my big claim to fame that I have helped more lawyers.
[00:12:22] RJon Robins: Me personally, I personally, and I don’t like talking about me personally because my team is amazing. I’ve got a hundred amazing full time employees. We’ve got, 40 small law firm management advisors who really make me look like a rock star every day. And I get way too much credit for the amazing work that they do with the 500 law firms that we manage.
[00:12:44] RJon Robins: But me personally, even before I started how to manage small law firm, I had already worked with over 9, 000 lawyers. Wow. Documented in Florida bar records, not just some number I pulled out of my ass to show off. That’s a lot. On every starting, marketing, managing, buying, selling, growing, you name it, a law firm.
[00:13:02] RJon Robins: I can’t remember the last time I saw a problem that I hadn’t seen a hundred percent
[00:13:06] Steve Fretzin: before. So that kind of experience just set you up so well to build the kind of company that you’ve built where you could do this and, you know, profit burst. You know, but helping people, but also making money. I think everybody agrees that’s a fair, that’s a fair exchange.
[00:13:19] RJon Robins: Yes. It was a very smooth transition from helping lawyers build successful law firms to that building my own very successful business where I didn’t make a ton of mistakes. No, I’m being sarcastic. We launched How to Manage a Small Law Firm in 2008. I think we’re on like the 7th or 8th iteration of tearing it down and rebuilding it, tearing it down and rebuilding it, tearing it down and rebuilding it.
[00:13:55] RJon Robins: And you know, one of the things that I try to do is I try to be very transparent with all of our members about our trials and tribulations and show them that like, you know, wow, if I can do this. You know, there’s hope for all,
[00:14:10] Steve Fretzin: right? Yeah. I mean, mistakes are only a gateway to, you know, learning and improvement and, you know, there’s, I talk about it openly too, that I’ve made a ton of mistakes in starting too many businesses, partnerships I shouldn’t have gotten into, you know, high overhead, you know, getting into things that I didn’t enjoy instead of focusing on what I do enjoy.
[00:14:29] Steve Fretzin: So it’s, yeah, everybody’s, you know, I guess, you know, it’s just, what can we learn?
[00:14:32] RJon Robins: Well, you know, the thing is you got to have the courage to go through that gateway, which unfortunately a lot of people don’t. And lawyers in particular have a real challenge with this because, and this is something that’s really near and dear to my heart, because, you know, you go to most bar functions, you talk to most law firm owners, and they don’t like to admit all of the problems they’ve got.
[00:15:00] RJon Robins: They don’t like to admit all of the mistakes, right? And they would have you believe that everything’s perfect. And this goes back to law school. Because they teach us in law school that don’t worry about the business of running a law firm. If you’re a good enough lawyer, everything will take care of itself.
[00:15:16] RJon Robins: And so the idea gets planted in the minds of most lawyers. And even though most of your listeners will instantly say, that’s idiotic. I don’t think that way. Deep down when you’re by yourself, think about whether you actually kind of have this belief. You know, rattling around in your head from way back when.
[00:15:37] RJon Robins: And so the idea is if I’m having a problem with the business of running my law firm, it might be because I’m on a good enough lawyer. Right. And so when you go to a bar function and you say, I’m having a problem projecting the profits in my business 18 months from now, so that I can make smarter, more confident, strategic hiring decisions, marketing decisions.
[00:16:06] RJon Robins: Signing a lease on an office, etc. What does financial projections have to do with being a good lawyer? Right? If no one taught you how to manage the finances of a law firm, you’re not going to know about the business managing of the finances of a law firm. I’m having a hard time recruiting great staff.
[00:16:23] RJon Robins: I’m having a hard time getting my staff to perform at a high level. If I admit that, it’s the same thing as admitting that I’m just not a good enough lawyer, because if I was a good enough lawyer, my staff would just magically read my mind. It’s not how it works, right?
[00:16:37] Steve Fretzin: Right. Or they’d want to work with, they’d want to work under me because I’m so good that they’re going to want to work under me and glean my knowledge.
[00:16:43] Steve Fretzin: And they’re going to be successful because of they’re next to me.
[00:16:46] RJon Robins: The point I’m making is there’s a real problem in the legal industry. Where there’s a fear of asking for help and there’s a fear of acknowledging that you don’t know what you don’t know because after all, what do they teach us in law school about asking questions you don’t know the answer to?
[00:17:04] RJon Robins: Good lawyers don’t ask questions they don’t know the answer to. Broke entrepreneurs don’t either. Broke entrepreneurs and good lawyers don’t ask questions they don’t already know the answer to. Yeah. Bad lawyers. And highly profitable entrepreneurs. We ask questions we don’t know the answer to because how else are you going to learn?
[00:17:28] RJon Robins: But there’s a fear in the legal industry of doing that,
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[00:17:47] Steve Fretzin: Get more rankings, get cases, and schedule a free consultation at Rankings. io today.
[00:17:59] Steve Fretzin: What’s the Rainmakers Roundtable? Well, I tell them this is a special place created exclusively for rainmaking lawyers to continue their journey of prosperity. Our program is unique as every member has a significant book of business and is motivated to grow it year after year. Where else does this exist?
[00:18:16] Steve Fretzin: If you’re a managing partner who’s looking to get off your lonely island and talk shop with America’s top rate makers, please go to my website, Fretzin. com and apply for membership today. So, so you’ve mentioned a few mistakes that they’re not willing to mention, but what are some of the main mistakes that you see lawyers making to build a profitable law practice?
[00:18:38] RJon Robins: Oh, you’re going to have to have me on for a,
[00:18:42] Steve Fretzin: this’ll be an extended version folks going to go on for four hours today. Okay. Well, like we’ll have to do it abbreviated fashion, I guess. Maybe we’ll just stick with like the top couple.
[00:18:51] RJon Robins: You want to know a couple of the mistakes that prevent lawyers from having more successful, a more successful business than they could otherwise have?
[00:19:00] RJon Robins: Sure. Number one, acknowledging, embracing the fact that it is a business, right? It’s a law firm. It’s also a business. It is a business. That is a law firm, right? But
[00:19:15] Steve Fretzin: you can be in a noble profession and still, it’s still a business.
[00:19:19] RJon Robins: They’re not the lawyer in the business of a law firm are two different things, right?
[00:19:26] RJon Robins: The job of the chef at a restaurant is to cook amazing food. Yeah. Yeah. The job of the, the business of the restaurant is to market the food, sell the food, deliver the food. Get paid for the food. The job of the lawyer is to perform legal services, protect people’s rights, uphold the law, all that great stuff.
[00:19:53] RJon Robins: And it is great. I mean, I’m a lawyer. I believe in that. I believe in what lawyers do. The business of a law firm, however, is to market legal services, Sell legal services, deliver the legal services that you promised the client and get paid. And if you’re smart, you did some financial controls, some financial projections, you put a business plan in place and you get paid more than it costs to deliver the services and you make a profit.
[00:20:25] RJon Robins: Yep. All right. So you asked,
[00:20:27] Steve Fretzin: that’s one. That’s gotta be, it’s gotta be seen as a business and run as a business. That’s number one. Without apology.
[00:20:35] RJon Robins: Yeah, right. You don’t feel bad about it. Listen, if you want to help a lot of clients build a more successful law, you know, if you’re struggling to pay yourself, if you’re struggling to hire an amazing staff, If you don’t have the financial resources and enough profit in your firm to give that staff the training they need and the best tools and the best equipment that they need, and if you don’t have the financial resources and the profitability to invest in a long term, grown up, rational marketing plan, as opposed to what most lawyers do, and I know you know this all too well, where they turn it on, turn it off, turn it on, turn it off.
[00:21:20] RJon Robins: Hey, can you get results tomorrow? Yeah, had we started six months ago, I could be getting your results tomorrow. Anyway, the point I’m making is if you don’t run the law firm profitably, you end up doing a disservice to your clients because no one benefits when the owner of the law firm is struggling financially.
[00:21:40] RJon Robins: There’s a long list of people who are much, much worse off with their clients at the top of the list. When you are struggling financially because they expect you to show up as the best version of yourself that you can be. They expect your staff, your associates, your paralegals, your secretaries to show up as the best versions of themselves they can be.
[00:22:00] RJon Robins: And no one can show up as the best version of themselves if they’re struggling financially. Yeah. On top of which, if you don’t have the financial resources and the processes and the systems and the procedures, you know, business infrastructure, you can’t leverage less expensive talent.
[00:22:23] Steve Fretzin: It’s, it’s, you know, there’s a, the book that you put out profit first for lawyers and in reviewing that, I mean, there, I would love to hear your definition of what is profit. How do you define it?
[00:22:36] RJon Robins: Profit is anytime you exchange something of a lower value to get something of a higher value. Profit is, is, is an unavoidable natural consequence of that exchange.
[00:22:50] RJon Robins: Anytime you exchange something of a lower value to get something of a higher value, profit is created. You can’t avoid it, right? Unfortunately, a lot of people think of profit only in financial terms,
[00:23:06] Steve Fretzin: right?
[00:23:07] RJon Robins: But let’s talk about, let’s talk, let’s talk about, we’re both making a profit right now. Your listeners are making a profit right now.
[00:23:16] RJon Robins: Right? There’s a million other things I could be doing right now with my time. There’s a million other things you could be doing right now with your time. We have both determined, we might be wrong, but we both believe in this moment that being here and doing this right now is worth more to us than anything else we could otherwise be doing.
[00:23:40] RJon Robins: Yes. Yeah. So we exchange the opportunity, we sacrifice the opportunity, we give up the opportunity, we are effectively paying for this with the opportunity cost of doing anything else we could be doing. And we, we do that because we think, because it’s worth more to them. So we’re making a profit by being here.
[00:24:01] RJon Robins: I mean, that is the essence of profit.
[00:24:03] Steve Fretzin: So the, in this case, the profit to us is a, this conversation, which leads to video, audio, marketing, value to your audience, value to my audience, right? Building promotion between us. Beginning to develop a relationship with
[00:24:19] RJon Robins: you. Yes. Yes. That’s a value to me as well.
[00:24:22] RJon Robins: Beginning to develop a relationship, hopefully with your audience, maybe they’ll download a resource from my website or something, maybe a profit leak detector on our website. You can go and find to find all the profit leaks in your business. Okay. And maybe that will open up a relationship. Maybe that’s going to be something of value to me.
[00:24:40] RJon Robins: As you said, you know, we’ll take this recording. We’ll chop it up. We’ll use it for lead gen. Maybe I’ll chop it up and do it and use it for some training for some of my staff. There’s a whole bunch of things that come out of this. The point I’m making is profit is the thing you hope or expect or plan to get.
[00:24:59] RJon Robins: In exchange for what you’re giving up now, think about this for a minute. Never in the history of our species on this planet, has there ever been a voluntary exchange between two able minded human beings where they didn’t both make a profit. Because if you didn’t think you were going to get something that was worth more to you than what you were giving up, you wouldn’t voluntarily engage in the exchange.
[00:25:29] Steve Fretzin: Yeah.
[00:25:29] RJon Robins: Right? Yeah. You could be forced, you could be tricked, you could be defrauded, you could be manipulated, but then it’s not voluntary.
[00:25:38] Steve Fretzin: It could just be a bad decision. Like Brad, I thought it was going to be one thing. Like, let’s say I met with someone for networking to think we’re going to cooperate and the person hard sells me, you know, insurance or hard sells me something.
[00:25:49] Steve Fretzin: That time is gone and, you know, and there was no profit. There was only pain in that moment. But maybe the profit is that I disqualify that person as someone I want to invest more time with. That could be a profit.
[00:26:00] RJon Robins: Look, at the risk of going on to another detour, the decision cannot be labeled a good decision or a bad decision based on how it turns out.
[00:26:12] RJon Robins: That is a recipe for circular thinking, which will stagnate your business and drive you and your family, right? The quality of the decision, this was a good decision or a bad decision, must be determined at the time the decision is made, not. Monday morning quarterback, right?
[00:26:33] Steve Fretzin: Okay. Yeah. An experience should dictate that, right?
[00:26:36] Steve Fretzin: So I’ve met with a bunch of insurance people. I don’t need to meet another one. I have my insurance. Like that’s not a meeting I need to necessarily take. And so I decide not to take it.
[00:26:45] RJon Robins: A good decision is a decision that is made with criteria. A good decision is a decision that is made thoughtfully. A good decision is a decision that’s made with some level of analysis, an appropriate amount of research, an appropriate amount of investigation, an appropriate amount of due diligence.
[00:27:05] RJon Robins: You take experience, training, education, professional advice, professional advisors, perhaps, and you, you apply it against a criteria Right? What is important to you in this situation, right? Against a strategic outcome you’re trying to achieve, you make the decision. That’s a good decision. Now, if luck goes against you, it doesn’t work out the way you hoped it would work out, it was still a good decision.
[00:27:37] RJon Robins: Luck just worked against you. A lot of people make bad decisions and luck works for them, and they mistakenly think they’re going through life making good decisions, which is really setting them up for the major fall when luck eventually goes against them. But you know, one of the things that you got to kind of keep in mind in my business, Last year grossed over 30 million and I know luck has something to do with it, right?
[00:28:04] RJon Robins: I embrace that. I know that every successful entrepreneur benefited from some luck. Now, if you make good decision, good decision, good decision, good decision, good decision, you’re putting yourself in a position to benefit when luck goes your way. If you make bad decision, bad decision, bad decision, bad decision, you could still win because luck is just airing the day for you.
[00:28:30] RJon Robins: But when luck goes against you, it’s going to go bad fast, right? And we see law firms come crashing out of the sky because the owner is just making bad decision, bad decision, bad decision, bad decision. And it’s like, look at me, I’m king of the universe, right? And then luck stopped going their way and their whole law firm falls apart real fast.
[00:28:48] RJon Robins: And how did this happen? Well, cause you made a lot of bad decisions. Go back to the quote at the beginning of the episode, right? Sorry, if I’m getting a little animated.
[00:28:55] Steve Fretzin: I just know, I mean, listen, I’m, I’m all for that. And everything you’re saying, it’s almost like you’re more of a philosopher than you are a business guy because they’re sitting there.
[00:29:03] Steve Fretzin: I know there’s a lot of philosophy in business, so it’s like you’re mixing them together. And on the nice little potion,
[00:29:08] RJon Robins: look, how to manage a small law firm is fundamentally a personal development business for entrepreneurs. We are unapologetically, very clearly, very intentionally a personal development business for entrepreneurs.
[00:29:26] RJon Robins: We happen to focus on a niche, which is law firms, my background, right? Right. But it’s all based on a set of values, a set of philosophies and a point of view, which is really cool because You know, if you come to our live quarterly meetings, there’s hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of, you know, million, multi million dollar law firm owners and plenty of people who are just getting started also.
[00:29:49] RJon Robins: And they’re black, they’re white, they’re Asian, they’re Hispanic, they’re gay, they’re straight, they’re old, they’re young. It’s like the most motley group of misfits come together. But we all resonate with a way of thinking about our relationship with our business and really our relationship with the world.
[00:30:07] RJon Robins: Yeah.
[00:30:08] Steve Fretzin: Listen, man, that’s where we’re going to stop. And I’m definitely going to have to have you back on because we didn’t get to, you know, 20%, we only got to 20 percent of what I wanted to cover today. That’s how this goes. On a 30 minute show, but let’s talk about your game changing book real quick, Arjan, and the one that you listed in your form here is called The Four Agreements.
[00:30:27] Steve Fretzin: Can you talk a little bit about that one?
[00:30:29] RJon Robins: Four Agreements by Don Miguel Ruiz. Be impeccable with your word. Don’t take anything personally. And two other agreements I’m blanking on at the moment. It’s a great book. I mean, it will help you be a better entrepreneur. It will help you be a better employer.
[00:30:44] RJon Robins: It’ll help you be a better, dare I say, It’ll help you be a better spouse. I guarantee you, it will help you be a better lawyer. Great book. Yeah. Don Miguel Ruiz.
[00:30:56] Steve Fretzin: Awesome. Check that out, everybody. And of course, I want to thank our sponsors. We’ve got Rankings. io helping you with your SEO, Pay Per Click, websites, everything you need to market your business online.
[00:31:06] Steve Fretzin: And I want to thank Sonia Palmer, one of our sponsors for LawHer, continue to put out impactful episodes dedicated to growing women in business and law. And of course, I’m going to promote the RRT, Rainmakers Roundtable. If you’re looking to get into a peer advisor group of rainmakers, growth oriented folks only need apply.
[00:31:24] Steve Fretzin: Go to Fretzin. com and check that out, and we will see if it’s a good fit. Arjan, thanks so much for coming on, and if people want to learn more about how to manage a small law firm, they want to hear more about you, what are the best ways for them to find you and reach out to you?
[00:31:38] RJon Robins: Well, we have had a waiting list for the better part of two years for new members.
[00:31:42] RJon Robins: And so, I’m not like trying to come on here with a hard sell, really we just share tons and tons of resources. We got all kinds of free programs, free training, free workshops, virtual free workshops, live free workshops, all kinds of free stuff. We pretty much just open up the vault and share stuff with people on the theory that we’re not going to run out of stuff.
[00:32:06] Steve Fretzin: Right.
[00:32:07] RJon Robins: So, you know, we give it to you for free, you try it out, you start to get some results, you see if you like it, go to the, go to the website, howtomanageasasmalllawfirm. com. We also have a podcast based on the Profit First for Lawyers book, podcast is Profit First for Lawyers. I’m not into creative names.
[00:32:26] Steve Fretzin: Yeah. No, I’m picking up on that.
[00:32:28] RJon Robins: We’ll make more money. Yeah, just jump in, start taking advantage of all the resources, and you’ll figure out pretty quickly if this is for you or not, and if it’s for you, you’ll matriculate into a conversation with someone from my team when the time is right, and if it’s not, I’m happy to help you anyway, because life gives to the giver.
[00:32:49] Steve Fretzin: Yeah, life’s too short to be a greedy pig, right? Let’s help everybody, let’s make this industry stronger, right? I mean, I have limitations, like, similar to you, and we can’t work with everybody all the time, so, you know, You know, just putting out the podcast and the YouTube channel and the books and articles and anything we can do to help people, right?
[00:33:05] Steve Fretzin: I think you and I are on the same page with that. Why accept the invitation? Well, there you go. Well, Arjan, thanks so much, man. I do hope that there’s more for us to continue to talk about, whether it’s having you back or just figuring out some way to add value for each other and our businesses. But thank you so much.
[00:33:20] Steve Fretzin: This has been great. And again, for those listening, you know, a real treat to have Arjan on and just talking a little bit about, you know, what does it take to, to be successful as a lawyer today, you know, with all the crap going on in the world. So thanks so much. Thanks for having me. And thank you everybody for spending time today on the Be That Lawyer with Fretzin podcast, helping you to be that lawyer, confident, organized, and a skilled rate maker.
[00:33:41] Steve Fretzin: Take care, everybody. Be safe. Be well. We will talk again soon.
[00:33:48] Narrator: Thanks for listening to Be That Lawyer, life changing strategies and resources for growing a successful law practice. Visit Steve’s website, Fretzin. com, for additional information and to stay up to date on the latest legal business development and marketing trends. For more information and important links about today’s Check out today’s show notes.