In this episode, Steve Fretzin and Ron Latz discuss:
- Challenges in business development and marketing for lawyers
- Aligning marketing strategies with law firm goals
- Choosing the right marketing vendors for law firms
- Personal branding and networking in law firm success
Key Takeaways:
- Lawyers often struggle with marketing due to a lack of business development education and being overwhelmed by running their practices.
- When selecting marketing vendors, firms should assess cultural fit, business alignment, scope of work, track record of success, and trust.
- Small law firms with limited budgets can achieve growth by focusing on community involvement, referral marketing, and low-cost marketing channels like social media.
- Law firms should base their marketing investments on specific goals, competition analysis, and available budget, as certain markets may be cost-prohibitive.
“[Lawyers] don’t necessarily know what they don’t know… there just not as many hours as we all want in each of these days to become a specialist at everything.” — Ron Latz
Read Steve’s past episodes as Blogcasts—visit now: https://fretzin.com/blog/
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Rainmakers Roundtable: https://fretzin.com/lawyer-coaching-and-training/peer-advisory-groups/
Episode References:
Obviously Awesome by April Dunford: https://www.amazon.com/Obviously-Awesome-Product-Positioning-Customers/dp/1999023005
Positioning with April Dunford: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/positioning-with-april-dunford/id1690104435
About Ron Latz: Ron Latz is a seasoned legal marketing consultant and the founder of LegalFenix, a consultancy dedicated to providing industry-leading marketing consulting and fractional CMO services to the legal community. With a deep understanding of the unique challenges lawyers face with their legal marketing, Ron has helped numerous law firms enhance their market presence, attract more clients, and transform their marketing results. His strategic approach and industry expertise make him a sought-after consultant and fractional CMO in the legal space.
Connect with Ron Latz:
Website: http://www.legalfenix.com
Email: [email protected]
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/ronlatz/ & https://www.linkedin.com/company/legalfenix/
Connect with Steve Fretzin:
LinkedIn: Steve Fretzin
Twitter: @stevefretzin
Instagram: @fretzinsteve
Facebook: Fretzin, Inc.
Website: Fretzin.com
Email: [email protected]
Book: Legal Business Development Isn’t Rocket Science and more!
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Call Steve directly at 847-602-6911
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FULL TRANSCRIPT
[00:00:00] Steve Fretzin: Hey listeners, I know you’re getting a ton of amazing tips from our expert guests here on the show, but keeping track of them can be a challenge. I know that. That’s why I’ve created Blogcasts, the perfect way to capture the best insights from every episode. Each Blogcast condenses an entire show into a two page summary packed with key takeaways that you can apply right away.
[00:00:21] Steve Fretzin: Head over to Fretzin. com slash blog to start reading, learning, and taking action. Let these blog casts help you on your journey to be that lawyer with Fretzin. Now, enjoy the show
[00:00:35] Narrator: You’re listening to be that lawyer life changing strategies and resources for growing a successful law practice Each episode your host author and lawyer coach Steve Fretzin Will take a deeper dive helping you grow your law practice in less time with greater results Now, here’s your host Steve Fretzin
[00:00:56] Steve Fretzin: Hey everybody, welcome to be that lawyer with Fretzin And I am Steve Fretzin, and I’m happy you’re here.
[00:01:02] Steve Fretzin: We’ve got a great show today, as we always do twice a week for your listening pleasure and as well as helping you to, you know, be that lawyer, someone who’s confident, organized and a skilled rainmaker. Really, really trying to help you guys figure out, navigate all the different aspects of growing the best law practice you can and maintaining a great life.
[00:01:22] Steve Fretzin: Kind of live in the dream and everything we can. And my job is to just continue to bring you great guests. If you’re hearing about Fretzin for the first time, I’m not going to spend a lot of time on the stuff I do, but I do a very advanced MBA style coaching and training program involves one on one coaching involves being in a classroom.
[00:01:38] Steve Fretzin: Learning all the skills you never learned in law school and really focusing on internalizing how to do business development as a learned skill and getting the habits in place to do that for the rest of your career. I also, as you guys may recall, run currently three, soon to be four, peer advisory round tables.
[00:01:54] Steve Fretzin: We take successful rainmakers, put them in a room, let them battle royale it out. No, we, we help them. They, they come up with ideas for each other. They solve each other’s problems. We challenge each other. We hold each other accountable. It’s a, it’s a very fun. Family oriented firm away from your firm. So if you’re interested in either of those, let me know.
[00:02:11] Steve Fretzin: You can go to Fretzin. com and just fill out the contact form and we will talk. But that’s enough about that. I’ve got Ron waiting in the wings and we’re going to have a great conversation today about marketing. Ron, what’s happening, man? How you doing?
[00:02:24] Ron Latz: Steve, how are you? Great to be here.
[00:02:27] Steve Fretzin: I’m doing well.
[00:02:28] Steve Fretzin: Doing well. We were talking about the kids going to going to kindergarten, huh? The twins off to the, off to kindergarten, huh? The time, first, first time in the, in their life, huh? Yeah.
[00:02:36] Ron Latz: Yes, they couldn’t be more excited to ride that big yellow bus. We’ll see. My daughter will she’ll, she’ll go off without a win.
[00:02:42] Ron Latz: And my, my son, he might say I’d rather stay home with you and mom, but we’ll see what happens on Thursday.
[00:02:46] Steve Fretzin: It’s going to be what it’s going to be, right? They got us, they got to suck it up and deal with it. That’s called life. That’s you know, somebody who, who really worked hard in his career was Muhammad Ali and your quote of the show.
[00:02:57] Steve Fretzin: There was a good segue, by the way, a quote of the show. Was I hated every minute of my training, but I said don’t quit suffer now and live the rest of your life as a champion And I want to get your take on that, and I’ve got a quick spin on it as well, but but A, welcome to the show, and B, tell us why you submitted that quote as your, as your quote of the show.
[00:03:17] Ron Latz: Thanks, Steve, and I appreciate the invite, looking forward to the discussion, and I chose that quote just because, as I was growing up, I was a hockey player, I played travel, I played high school, I played college, and, you know, in, in those years, You know, I, I didn’t appreciate the, the bag skates and the gym sessions and the constant running and trying to get my cardio to where I needed to be.
[00:03:38] Ron Latz: I thought I could, if I could just stay on the ice, like that’s, that’s, that was my habit. That’s, that’s where I enjoyed life pretty much going through my, my adolescence and my childhood. And, you know, in those moments. It was hard to get through, but you know, you try to go out, you try to win states, you try to win a championship, you want to bring home a banner.
[00:03:58] Ron Latz: And I was able to do so in some of those teams that I played with, but that’s kind of evolved now, you know, now I do have much more of an appreciation for it, but it was something that kept me very driven. I had it as, you know, the background of my phone for, for years. Someone who also. It’s very much a lover of all things, sales and business development.
[00:04:17] Ron Latz: I think earlier in my career, you know, putting in the dials or shaking the hands, going to the networking events. I, I didn’t have nearly as much of an appreciation as I do do now. So I felt like if you just put in the work, you’re going to be able to reap those rewards in the future.
[00:04:32] Steve Fretzin: Yeah. And no big surprise that my, my take on this is going to, you know, be around lawyers and business development, because there is a price to be paid.
[00:04:41] Steve Fretzin: To network to go out and speak to put in the time to build your brand to put in the time to develop a network and develop clients and build a book that you can really be proud of, but you have to put in a little time and there’s going to be a little suffering because you’ve got the billable hour pushing you pulling you in one direction you’ve got the family pulling you in another direction for many and then and then you’ve got this thing called business development, which is not You know, in the job description that most lawyers signed up for.
[00:05:09] Steve Fretzin: So, you know, unfortunately to be a champion in my world, it’s a rainmaker, right? That’s a champion, someone that has control over his or her future via, you know, million dollar plus book, a business that’s portable. And without putting in the time and suffering and, and putting a little extra work, it’s not going to happen.
[00:05:27] Steve Fretzin: So, you know, I hate, I hate that it has to happen for lawyers that way. And of course I’d love to make, and I do try to make it easier by providing proven skills and ways and means of doing it that are less painful, but it still has to happen.
[00:05:39] Ron Latz: It does. Right. You have to put in those practice reps so that when game time comes, you’re able to perform and the more prepared you are, the better the outcomes will eventually be.
[00:05:46] Steve Fretzin: Yeah. It’s tough to get around it. So for everybody listening, Ron Latz is the founder of LegalPhoenix you’ve been around legal marketing for a long, long time. Give us your background. And then I’ve got a bunch of very pointed questions to ask you to get into the weeds on how lawyers can best Not only market themselves, but also ensure that they’re making good decisions.
[00:06:05] Steve Fretzin: Cause I think that’s half the battle, but but let’s go back to you.
[00:06:08] Ron Latz: That is half the battle, Steve, but getting back to the original question there, I’ve been in the legal marketing space for just shy of a decade and a half. I started with Thompson Reuters where I was really selling marketing products, advertising solutions to law firms.
[00:06:24] Ron Latz: I eventually did part ways one out of my own. I started my own business consultancy where I kind of was dipping my toes into more of the fractional space, but there was just really advisory work, providing direction and coaching to law firms who were just unsure which way it was up so that they could make smart investments I ultimately then moved on and partnered ways.
[00:06:45] Ron Latz: Into helping rebuild a more boutique legal marketing agency where I was responsible for not only outbound sales, inbound sales, building the customer success and digital strategist function, where again, I was trying to guide firms into products and services, marketing solutions that were going to help them reach their goals.
[00:07:03] Ron Latz: It just got to the point where. I had enough of a book of a business to really just go out all on my own. The itch was there again. I wanted to build something of my own and be responsible for pretty much everything that comes with owning and running and managing a business. So I’ve, although I’ve been incorporated for about seven or eight years, I officially, you know, relaunched legal Phoenix the first of 2024.
[00:07:27] Ron Latz: It’s been a very, very exciting eight, almost nine months now. And I’m incredibly excited for what the future holds.
[00:07:32] Steve Fretzin: And i love the fact that you’re a marketing guy but you have a sales background in involved in that because marketing and sales as we have discussed in the show hundreds of times go they go hand in hand and when you have somebody that that’s great at marketing but doesn’t know the first thing about sales.
[00:07:48] Steve Fretzin: It doesn’t, you know, it’s like, Hey, you’ve got a marketing agency, congrats, but they can’t sell it. Or they have a hard time figuring out how the marketing and the sales components work together to help their clients.
[00:07:58] Ron Latz: Agreed. I think I, I do have a unique appreciation for that. You know, the left hand there needs to know what the right is doing.
[00:08:05] Ron Latz: I look at it more as like an acquisition function, right? I’m much removed from the days in where people are arguing over who gets credit, whether it was the sales guy or it was the marketing campaign. We’re all supposed to be in the same boat rowing in the same direction to achieve the goals that the business or the firm has set out to achieve.
[00:08:24] Ron Latz: So I try to bring that alignment in with whatever engagement that I enter into.
[00:08:29] Steve Fretzin: So the, the, the thing I wanted to start off with and I, I sometimes go negative before we go positive, which is, you know, lawyers. As I mentioned earlier, they don’t learn business development, marketing, brand strategy, any of this stuff unless they have an undergrad in that.
[00:08:42] Steve Fretzin: And they certainly don’t learn any of that in law school and at the law firm level. But they get into either, you know, they become the managing partner, they, they’re in their own practice, they practice. It could be their own practice in under a big umbrella of a firm or they’re on their own building something and they don’t have that background of marketing.
[00:09:00] Steve Fretzin: Why, I mean, that’s one reason why they sort of stink at it, but what, what are some other things that you, that you, reasons why lawyers struggle with the marketing side of things?
[00:09:10] Ron Latz: I think it would be the same way that we would struggle if we were tasked with, you know, managing a deposition or going to trial, right?
[00:09:16] Ron Latz: They just don’t necessarily know what they don’t know. They lack that subject matter expertise. They’re also busy building a business, having consultations, managing employees, and a lot of them, you know, love the practice of law. There’s just. Not as many hours as we all want in each of these days to become a specialist at everything.
[00:09:36] Ron Latz: So, you know, there, there are a few that are incredible at it that have really embraced personal branding, have really gotten involved and, and, and give the appropriate resources at the firm, a seat at the marketing table so that everybody can understand what they are trying to do. So that translates into sales, but I do find that those are a few and far between.
[00:09:55] Steve Fretzin: And so there’s a lot of obviously different size firms. There’s different practice areas. There’s different industries. There’s all these different moving parts with it. And in some marketing is going to work better for some like, you know, billboards for personal injury, certainly going to work better than for big firm litigation, right?
[00:10:11] Steve Fretzin: They’re not going to do billboards, but there’s things that big firm litigators need to do in developing relationships, strategic alliances, things like that. But how, so how, how do, how do they manage and evaluate what marketing would work for them? What, what’s kind of like, is there an evaluation process they should go through or figure it out?
[00:10:29] Ron Latz: Yeah, I mean, this all depends upon the makeup of your business. Let’s say that you are evaluating and trying to select an outsource marketing vendor or a partner. I really boil it down to about five key components. I look at the cultural fit. I look at business alignment. I look at the scope of work. I look at their track record of success and then ultimately trust.
[00:10:48] Ron Latz: Right. As far as cultural fit, if you’re accustomed to having an in house marketing resource, and then you’re going to go out and outsource your marketing efforts, you’ve got to get accustomed to that now new engagement cadence, because that individual isn’t going to be entirely dedicated to you. That account manager or customer success professional may be managing dozens and dozens of accounts.
[00:11:09] Ron Latz: They may also not be the subject matter expert. They have to bring in the SEO specialist or the ad specialist. Not saying either way is right. I know plenty of firms that are building functions in house. I know plenty of firms that also rely on an outsource agency, but you just got to know what you’re going into right before you sign on that dotted line.
[00:11:29] Ron Latz: I think the business alignment is another big thing, Steve. And I know that we could have an entire episode talking about legal marketing agency exclusivity. I see both sides of those coins, but if that agency that you are working with is helping the firm down the road, generate the same types of cases as you are.
[00:11:46] Ron Latz: You do have the right to know. Talk about scope, right? There are some specialists and then there’s also the agency of record model, right? It is a lot easier to have one single point of contact who manages your paid ads or your social ads and your organic SEO, your local efforts, right? You can also have a disparator.
[00:12:05] Ron Latz: You know, hub and spoke approach where you just have different agencies or freelancers or coaches and consultants that specialize in one area or the other. So you’ve got to really figure out what works best for you. Next, the track record of success. Listen, I kind of harp a lot on previous podcasts, on my LinkedIn posts, and I give, you know, case studies a hard time.
[00:12:27] Ron Latz: It’s really because I think many of them lack the context as to all of the other complimentary or supplemental marketing efforts that were actually adjoined to said campaign or billboard or ad or video. It’s very uncommon where it was just one single source. It’s generating all of these leads it’s, it’s that flywheel that’s working together.
[00:12:50] Ron Latz: And then finally trust you, you’ve got to like the people that you are working with. If you’re going to be spending tens of thousands of dollars a month or hundreds of thousands or even more every single year, you’ve got to be able to work with them, have some difficult conversations, make sure a feedback loop is created so that again, they know what is happening when it’s happening and why it’s happening.
[00:13:11] Ron Latz: So everyone’s on the same page. Those are pretty much what I leave with when I’m trying to help affirm. And guide them through that process.
[00:13:18] Steve Fretzin: Yeah. But I, what resonated with me was the vetting process. I think it’s a couple of things. One is. How many questions did the marketing agency, for example, ask you, they’re running the meeting, they could be presenting you a lot of solutions, but are they asking questions to really identify your buyer persona, where you get business from, how, you know, what, what is going to work best for you and your culture, your firm and all that, are they asking you questions, the other piece of it is, let’s say you feel like it’s a good fit, everything’s there, Like, I give out names of my clients for, for new prospective clients for my programs to speak with.
[00:13:54] Steve Fretzin: Why? Well, because I want them to hear from other lawyers the successes that they received because they did the right things. They actually did, you know, they followed through on the things that they were supposed to follow through on. And so I think that’s better than a case study, right? Cause case studies can be whatever anybody wants them to be.
[00:14:09] Steve Fretzin: When in reality live interactive conversations about, is this vendor good? Is this agency grade? Whatever it might be. I find that much more helpful. I’m going to double down on that or piggyback, whatever. You could double piggyback. Double down piggyback on this. Take that a step further with those references.
[00:14:28] Ron Latz: Even if they’re in a mastermind or if they’re in another networking group or just colleagues that you’ve met, maybe in another. Chat group, whatever it may be trying to get the context as much as you can ask them, how long did they make the investment? How much was the investment? What was the initial goal and objective, right?
[00:14:45] Ron Latz: Like, did they continually keep you up to date on the status of those programs? It’s not just going to someone and say, Hey, did Google ads work for you? You, you’re just going to get a yes or no answer. And someone that’s jaded or potentially didn’t have the right partner where it didn’t perform is going to then tell someone you should never do it.
[00:15:02] Ron Latz: I think all types of marketing work. It’s just whether or not it’s going to work for you, your firm, your situation, and your goals. And that’s what you’ve really got to dig down into the bottom of. With proven SEO and digital marketing strategies that drive actual clients to your firm, Rankings. io prides itself on proof, not promises mentality.
[00:15:23] Steve Fretzin: The best firms hire Rankings. io when they want rankings, traffic, and cases other law firm marketing agencies can’t deliver. Get more rankings. Get cases. and schedule a free consultation at Rankings. io today. Hey everybody, Steve Fretzin here. Man, I thought I was a good marketer, but maybe not. Lawyers have been approaching me asking, what’s the Rainmakers Roundtable?
[00:15:44] Steve Fretzin: Well, I tell them this is a special place created exclusively for rainmaking lawyers to continue their journey of prosperity. Our program is unique as every member has a significant book of business and is motivated to grow it year after year. Where else does this exist? If you’re a managing partner who’s looking to get off your lonely island With America’s top rainmakers, please go to my website, Fretzin.
[00:16:07] Steve Fretzin: com and apply for membership today. So I, there’s a lot of, a lot of, like you said, moving parts that need to be observed and looked into and the evaluation, you know, knowing there’s two parts, there’s the, I need to get more marketing. So who do I talk to? Right. And the second part is what, what should I invest in?
[00:16:28] Steve Fretzin: And how do I know that it’s going to work for me? And there’s no promises, but people that have been in this a long time. We’ll know whether, you know, like I know if I’m dealing with someone who’s working, you know billing 60 hours a week and that’s never going to change that my programs a waste of time because no one’s going to work 60 hours a week and then do business development.
[00:16:47] Steve Fretzin: That’s just not ever going to happen. So there’s people that can be quickly disqualified too. But what take, take that to the next level.
[00:16:55] Ron Latz: There’s a multitude of factors that, you know, you’ve got to take into account or consider when you’re making any sort of investment, whether it’s SEO or paid ads or social, I think it boils down to three primary components.
[00:17:08] Ron Latz: And that’s, what are the goals and objectives of your firm? Not someone else’s, you’re building your own firm, not the guys or the gals down the street. The second one is going to be, you’ve got to take a look at the competitive landscape, right? Whether you’re in the local, whether in your organic or your paid ads, what are the review profiles of these individual firms?
[00:17:29] Ron Latz: Are they constantly showing up? Like you see the usual suspects when you’re doing your Google searches, do you know who is constantly there? And if you’re working with a, an ad specialist, they’re going to tell you like how much search impression share you’re capturing and what else is available within the market, right?
[00:17:45] Ron Latz: You’ve got to make sure that you understand and you articulate that as well as you can to the, to the agency. They’re going to do some competitive research, and then they’re going to make a recommendation based off of the competitive landscape to hopefully meet the objectives that you’re out to achieve.
[00:18:02] Ron Latz: And then finally, it’s capitalization. It’s your budget, right? There are some markets where SEO and ads are just simply cost prohibitive there that you have to actually posted about it today. That doesn’t mean that you can’t. Find a niche or find your, your nook and cranny as to where you can uncover opportunities.
[00:18:22] Ron Latz: But in some of those major markets and metros, you’re just not able to dip your toe in the water.
[00:18:28] Steve Fretzin: Yeah. So like, like per like personal injury, Chicago, I’m pretty new at, you know, doing personal injury in Chicago. And I’m going to start doing pay per click ads, try to do SEO on that. It’s going to be a disaster, right?
[00:18:41] Ron Latz: You yourself or as a personal injury? No,
[00:18:43] Steve Fretzin: no, no. I’m a, let’s say I’m a personal injury attorney and I’m trying to now be competitive with other ones that have been either around for 20, 30, 40 years, or I’m going to just pay out to try to get on the first page, which is going to be what 300 a click.
[00:18:57] Ron Latz: I mean, generally speaking, it is going to require a very aggressive investment in order to compete now.
[00:19:05] Steve Fretzin: If millions of dollars a week, it could be or a month or something. I mean, it’s, it’s to, to, to go up against the big, the big players that have the big budgets. It’s not easy. Yeah.
[00:19:15] Ron Latz: Yeah. There are certainly firms that are spending. 20, 30, 40, 50, 000 a month on SEO, a quarter million dollars a month on paid ads, right?
[00:19:24] Ron Latz: And if that’s not your firm, which it’s not many of them, you’ve got to do things that are much more around building brand awareness, being active in your community, making sure that you are networking and doing the bit that the business development and ensuring that your referral marketing efforts are really top notch because playing in the digital landscape, you might not be able to afford that.
[00:19:45] Ron Latz: And maybe that’s not the firm that you’re trying to build, right? Those firms, many of them are very high volume. The infrastructure that is needed to support that type of case line is significant. So if you don’t have the resources or the infrastructure to bring on another three, four or 500 cases a month, right?
[00:20:02] Ron Latz: There’s no, there’s no intention to then go and invest, make that type of investment because that’s not the firm or the business model that you’re operating in.
[00:20:10] Steve Fretzin: So we’ve got a pretty good following on the Be That Lawyer podcast with Solos and Small Firm Attorneys if you guys are listening. Ron, what are suggestions for people that are on a budget to get some marketing chops built and start bringing in business or start building their brand?
[00:20:28] Ron Latz: I would say talk to as many people as humanly possible about all the things that they are doing outside of their digital and their traditional channel, right? Talk to an individual like yourself, Steve, make sure that your business development, that you have a plan in place, that you are tracking your referrals, that you are active in your community, not just cutting a check and making a donation, right?
[00:20:48] Ron Latz: Like you are actually involved. You are a voice within the local community. So that people do eventually know, like, and trust you, you build that awareness, and that awareness eventually turns into affinity. So that when someone thinks about that divorce, or potentially the DUI, or the accident, that you are going to be their first call.
[00:21:11] Steve Fretzin: I mean, here’s just a quick list I wrote down as you were talking. This is not rocket science, everybody, right? You’ve got speaking opportunities, Where you can demonstrate expertise you could write on your blog and promote it on social media or write for a publication like I write for above the law and and I’m getting quite a, quite a bit of traction with that networking, right?
[00:21:32] Steve Fretzin: Developing relationships, attending groups associations attending conferences, social media is like the great equalizer, right? So. The biggest companies in the smallest players can all compete on social media obviously my huge podcast banner put a ton of my clients in the podcast it’s a great way to meet people and get the word out like not and i right right now we’re having this great conversation and part of that is relationship building right that we do something together we’re collaborating on.
[00:22:01] Steve Fretzin: A project together like a podcast and of course writing a book and that’s just another way to you know these are all things that are fairly inexpensive to do they just take your time and effort and I think your point run is talk to people like me but also talk to other people in your area that do what you do to find out what they’re what’s working for that
[00:22:20] Ron Latz: you talked about social like linkedin is one of the primary ways I was exposed to most of your content seed and then getting into the podcast.
[00:22:27] Ron Latz: Yeah linkedin was a ghost town four or five years ago on linkedin Right now, you see an emergence of individuals trying to build personal brands, and I work directly with firms that are also trying to leverage that to build up more referral connections, not only within their own practice area, outside of their practice area, to get opportunities to speak on podcasts or webinars.
[00:22:49] Ron Latz: For other panels, the great, great opportunity that still exists on that platform.
[00:22:53] Steve Fretzin: Yeah. And one of the things that that free marketing, like we’re talking about with social media and some other, some other factors and business development have is that they can help you build in and bring in enough business to start putting money away.
[00:23:07] Steve Fretzin: To reinvest in the business, you know, if you’re just living check to check or you’re not able to like pay yourself and things like that, it’s very hard to then invest in marketing and feel good that you’re going to get a return and that’s going to end up working out. That’s why people get further into problems.
[00:23:24] Steve Fretzin: I, I would rather see someone put away 20 to 50, 000. Because they’re doing either free marketing or business development so that then they can decide, Hey, you know what? Now I need to talk with Ron. I’ve got 50, 000. It doesn’t mean you have to spend it all, but it means that you’ve got some money is a buffer.
[00:23:42] Steve Fretzin: That’s really what I’m looking to help lawyers get is that buffer so they can make investments in their business. So if they get that buffer or if they’re willing to take, you know, somewhat of a risk to market, how could, how, what’s the formula that law firms could or should use to determine what they should invest in and then, and then how much to invest?
[00:24:01] Ron Latz: It really depends upon where you are in your stage of your business or in your career. Obviously, if you are just coming out of law school and attempting to put up your shingle, you talked about putting away the 20 to 50, 000. You might not have that. You might not have those funds. So what are you going to invest?
[00:24:18] Ron Latz: You’re going to invest your time. You’re going to invest your time into trying to build a book of referrals so that you can have those individuals come to when it’s, when it’s time to have a case. If you’ve been with an established firm for some years and then go out on your own, you might have a book of business already.
[00:24:34] Ron Latz: And you might have some cash reserves, not saying you’ve got a war chest in the back, but you might be able to afford building up a website, doing some local, local ads, getting your Google business profile set up. And then there are those that are a little bit more fortunate, and they do have a lot of cash at their disposal.
[00:24:52] Ron Latz: They’ve been very successful within their career. So they’re able to outlay a large sum of money in order to get their presence out there. Most, most of my firms look at it a couple of different ways. Some will just allocate a percentage of their revenue towards their marketing. And then they’re going to put it into the appropriate channels, depending upon where their audience is.
[00:25:12] Ron Latz: Others that are slightly more sophisticated in their reporting and understand like their average cost per lead or their acquisition costs. Right. And if they take it a step further, those costs by marketing channel, they can kind of reverse engineer how much visibility they need to generate the amount of leads that they have to acquire or generate, and then based off of their conversion rates, how many of those will potentially convert and turn into revenue.
[00:25:37] Ron Latz: And then finally, like it’s not always necessarily a revenue goal. Like some goals and objectives are just for geographic expansion. You want to open up a new office. Others want to add a new attorney or a new practice area. And then depending upon again, what the target is, you can then make an adjustment around how much money you need to invest in order to achieve it.
[00:25:57] Steve Fretzin: Well, really great stuff there. As we wrap up, want to, of course, talk a little bit about our game changing book or podcast. And this is a double trouble one, because we’ve got someone that has books but also that you say are really amazing and then are awesome. And then also doubles as a podcast.
[00:26:13] Steve Fretzin: So April Dunford, Is obviously awesome. And then positioning with April Dunford. So that, so tell us about your relationship with, with this with this amazing marketing strategist.
[00:26:25] Ron Latz: I mean, I started following April on LinkedIn. I heard about her and the exit five podcast. I heard about her through refined labs, a lot of other resources.
[00:26:34] Ron Latz: And essentially her book is how to nail product positioning to really get customers. To get it, buy it and, and love it. I think that that’s the obviously awesome subtitle. She’s got a complimentary book after that called sales pitch, which is an incredible sales book as well. But her podcast also, some of the earlier episodes will dive into like her 10 step framework.
[00:26:56] Ron Latz: And I think messaging and positioning is somewhat, if not misunderstood, it is, it is neglected within law firms. And it’s an incredible resource to kind of. Ensure that you are sending the right message and positioning yourselves because it’s all about how the prospect is viewing us in their mind. It’s not just about we will get you justice, we get you what you deserve, we fight hard for you.
[00:27:23] Ron Latz: That’s all we, we, we. You know, she really helps boil it down and in pretty simple terms, how to differentiate yourself, how to position your cervix for your product in a way that I think is like, like none other out there. So I, I highly recommend the book and the podcast.
[00:27:39] Steve Fretzin: Awesome. Awesome. And as we wrap up, I want to thank our sponsors rankings IO.
[00:27:43] Steve Fretzin: And of course I want to just promote the Ray maker round table. So again, if you’re. Suffering in silence as a managing partner, as a rainmaker at a big firm, doesn’t matter you do in between one and 10 million. And you want to get involved in a group of, of supportive, ambitious rainmakers to surround yourself with and talk shop.
[00:28:01] Steve Fretzin: Please just email me at steve at Fretzin. com or go to my website, Fretzin. com Ron, if people want to get in touch with you, they want to. You know, you’re not, so you’re just to clarify, you’re the one that’s managing the agencies, you’re not the agency that would do SEO. You’re the one that’s managing the relationships with all the different players that would handle the the actual work.
[00:28:22] Ron Latz: That that’s correct. I’m all I’m a legal marketing go to market strategist through LegalPhoenix. I offer consulting and advisory work as well as fractional CMO services exclusively for law firms. So I try to help restore that trust in agency relationships as well as safeguard their investments so that they can feel confident that their marketing is actually working.
[00:28:41] Steve Fretzin: Yeah. I like that. What I like about that is you’re agnostic. You’re, you’re not, you’re not getting kickbacks. You’re not getting, you know, you’re putting people where they need to be. And for the right reasons, not. You’re not trying to put a round square in a, in a, in a round peg in a square hole because that’s going to make you a buck, right?
[00:28:58] Steve Fretzin: You’re trying to do what’s right for them to get them results and, and then move them in the right direction.
[00:29:03] Ron Latz: Correct. And selfishly, some of the enjoyment I get out of, out of that is anytime an agency or another partner will provide a kickback or an affiliate fee. Whatever charitable organization is nearest and dearest to my client’s heart.
[00:29:16] Ron Latz: We funnel that money right there to that, to that cause. Yeah. So
[00:29:19] Steve Fretzin: really great. Really great. Well, awesome, man. Thank you so much for being on the show and sharing your wisdom. I mean, marketing is like a. endless void or chasm that lawyers struggle with and, and, and, you know, in many cases, you know, spend a ton of money that’s wasted.
[00:29:33] Steve Fretzin: They really don’t, they really need direction and they need someone they can trust. And I, and I’m appreciative that you’re in the market doing this. So, you know, thank you so much for coming on the show and again, sharing your wisdom.
[00:29:43] Ron Latz: Thanks Steve. It was great. I really enjoyed it.
[00:29:45] Steve Fretzin: Yeah. Hey, and thank you everybody for spending some time with Ron and I on the Be That Lawyer with Fretzin podcast.
[00:29:50] Steve Fretzin: We are working here on your behalf to help you be that lawyer, someone who’s confident, organized, and a skilled rainmaker. Take care everybody. Be safe. Be well. We will talk again very soon.
[00:30:04] Narrator: Thanks for listening to Be That Lawyer, life changing strategies and resources for growing a successful law practice. Visit Steve’s website Fretzin. com for additional information and to stay up to date on the latest legal business development and marketing trends. For more information and important links about today’s episode, check out our website.
[00:30:25] Narrator: Check out today’s show notes.