In this episode, Steve Fretzin and Saja Raoof discuss:
- Introversion in professional networking
- Building a legal practice as an introvert
- Managing energy and making meaningful connections
- The role of systems in business development
Key Takeaways:
- Taking intentional breaks during networking events, such as stepping away for alone time, is a crucial strategy for introverts to manage their energy and remain engaged without feeling overwhelmed.
- Introverts can make networking conversations more comfortable and effective by asking open-ended questions, such as ‘How did you get into your career?,’ which encourages others to share while allowing them to listen rather than dominate the discussion.
- Careful preparation before networking events—such as identifying key people to meet, reaching out in advance, and setting clear goals like making three meaningful connections—helps introverts feel more in control and makes the experience less daunting.
- Although introverts may shy away from the spotlight, embracing opportunities to speak, give testimonials, or lead discussions allows them to establish credibility and expand their network without relying on small talk or forced social interactions.
“I am so outspoken about being an introvert exactly to send a message to the people who are a little too close, or just, you know, it’s okay to embrace and it’s okay to talk about.” — Saja Raoof
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Episode References:
Quiet by Susan Cain: https://www.amazon.com/Quiet-Power-Introverts-World-Talking/dp/0307352153
Networking for People Who Hate Networking by Devora Zack: https://www.amazon.com/Networking-People-Who-Hate-Underconnected/dp/1605095222
About Saja Raoof: Saja Raoof is a San Francisco-based business immigration attorney. Though an introvert, she owes much of her professional success to networking. Saja will share tips on how introverts can not only survive but thrive at networking, and how they can leverage their strengths to build meaningful business relationships.
Connect with Saja Raoof:
Website: https://www.sar.law/
Email: [email protected]
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/sajaraoof/
Connect with Steve Fretzin:
LinkedIn: Steve Fretzin
Twitter: @stevefretzin
Instagram: @fretzinsteve
Facebook: Fretzin, Inc.
Website: Fretzin.com
Email: [email protected]
Book: Legal Business Development Isn’t Rocket Science and more!
YouTube: Steve Fretzin
Call Steve directly at 847-602-6911
Audio production by Turnkey Podcast Productions. You’re the expert. Your podcast will prove it.
FULL TRANSCRIPT
Steve Fretzin: [00:00:00] Hey everybody, before we get to the show, I wanted to announce that your favorite podcast and mine, Be That Lawyer, is now syndicated on Above the Law. You can find it on their website, all of our new episodes, as well as my monthly column. I appreciate your listening and loyalty. Please don’t keep our show a secret.
Please tell a friend and let’s make sure that Be That Lawyer continues to grow and be the go to podcast for lawyers all over the world. Thanks and enjoy today’s episode.
Narrator: You’re listening to Be That Lawyer, life changing strategies and resources for growing a successful law practice. Each episode, your host, author and lawyer coach, Steve Fretzin, will take a deeper dive, helping you grow your law practice in less time with greater results. Now, here’s your host, Steve Fretzin.
Steve Fretzin: Hey everybody, welcome to the Be That Lawyer with Fretzin podcast. We are here again to help you be that lawyer, confident, organized, and a skilled rainmaker. I love what I [00:01:00] do, helping attorneys grow their law practices, but I have a special place in my heart for this podcast and the people that I get to meet, the people I get to interview.
And Saja, it has been a long time coming, would you agree? Yes, I’ve been asking you and we set to have you on and then we had a little pause and you had to go and build some significant business. You had a great year. It sounds like in 2024 and now we’re back and I’ve got you and you’re trapped for 30 minutes with me and you can’t escape.
But I’m so excited that you’re here. We’re gonna have some fun. If you’re okay having some fun and some laughs along the way.
Saja Raoof: Absolutely. And you knew the topic was introversion. So inevitably there will be some delay getting the
Steve Fretzin: That’s okay. Look, we’re going to be there. What do you think?
Just out of curiosity, if you had to put a ballpark on like how many attorneys out of a hundred are introverts, what would you say? It’s false. It’s probably 50, 50, 50, 50. I would agree with that. I actually enjoy working with introverts. I know that sounds odd, but I feel like they’re, they have the most, the greatest opportunity to [00:02:00] follow a system.
I think extroverts hate systems and they’re like feathers on the wind like me. And then there’s people that really appreciate a good system. And when they get a system, it’s Oh, everything comes together. So I enjoy watching that transformation in what I do, but let’s jump in right away with our quote of the show, and this is Matthew Cahill.
When you shine a light on others, it reflects on you. Welcome to the show, and please share why that is your quote of the show.
Saja Raoof: Thank you so much for having me, Steve. It’s really an honor. I’ve been a big fan of your books and your podcast and your work, and it’s such an honor to be on your show. So Matthew Kael is a dear friend of mine.
He’s a member in the network that you and I both belong to, Provisors. And when he mentioned that quote at a meeting that I attended a few years ago that he facilitates inclusive leadership in a virtual world, it really resonated with me. Because it’s almost suited for introverts, who like to put their attention on other people and deflect it off themselves.
And that boomerangs [00:03:00] and reflects on them. When I give you a referral, or I give you a great testimonial, and I really put effort and thought into that testimonial whether it’s verbal, or in my case in the form of a video, Then my making you look good makes me look good. And that’s great news for introverts because we prefer to do things that way.
So it enhances us networking wise.
Steve Fretzin: I think it, we could take that even further and say, and this is something I came up with, which is, if you help enough other people get what they want out of life, then you get what you want out of life. Like we can, if we just focus on other people and I love to get results from my clients and that’s how I get results, they’re seen through them. So I think that’s all in line and, networking about being a giver. I think it all. works together. And I think what you’re saying is it also really helps introverts take the spotlight off of themselves and get comfortable with putting it on someone else and then dealing with reflection, which is beautiful.
Saja Raoof: Absolutely. There’s a reason why the book, The Go [00:04:00] Goofer by Bergenmann is so heavily cited in provisors. There is entire provisors meetings centered just on discussing it. The copy is a group leader of it last year. And it’s because what you just said is the foundation of successful networking. Yeah.
Steve Fretzin: Everybody, we’re going to get some great insights today from my friend, Saja Rauv who’s the border wall destroyer at Saja Rauv. And let’s just take a little trip down memory lane a little bit in your life and how did you become you? What’s your, you don’t have to start when you were like two, take us through like how you became this top notch immigration attorney and how you have become this great business developer as an introvert.
Like I want to give the reader’s digest to our folks.
Saja Raoof: We my family and I traveled quite heavily when I was growing up. We’re originally from Iraq, but we lived in the UK and in Saudi Arabia and then eventually immigrated to the U. S. We kept trying to go back to Iraq, but recent events in my lifetime made it very difficult from war to dictatorship.
In the early 90s when it was clear we were probably never going to go back to Iraq after 9 1 1 [00:05:00] Gulf War, my dad decided to apply for a newly legislated visa at the time, called Alien of Extraordinary Ability, which is locally known as the Genius Visa. And it’s for individuals who are at the top of their field internationally.
And he had me help him put our green card application together when I was about 13 years old. So going through that process really informed my career decision to become. a business immigration lawyer. And so my parents had met in medical school. I was pre med for a long time. And then I decided to jump ship and go to law school.
Steve Fretzin: I had the opposite thing. My father, Larry, the Lake Ray, Larry, the lawyer, he’d put me on the cross as a teenager. And I said, I never want to be a lawyer. Cause I was just getting annihilated by my very intelligent father who had about a thousand questions for me, including why’d you park on the lawn?
But that’s a different story. We won’t get into cause I was 14 anyway, Saja. So let’s talk a little bit about building your own practice and what were some of the challenges that you had [00:06:00] starting your own gig, being someone who’s an introvert and maybe even talk about like how your, what your mindset was back then.
Saja Raoof: Networking was absolutely the hardest part of starting my own practice. So my clients were primarily ones who already knew me and referred me other clients, but as far as proactively reaching out to people and going to, I would go to immigration lawyer events or bar association events. Maybe talk to a few people, gather a few business cards, maybe connect to them on LinkedIn, put their cards in the door and never talk to them again or hear from them.
Yeah. I’m from Michigan. When I moved to California, I knew almost nobody, so it was very difficult for me to build my network and to get out of my shell and it took a lot of practice and reading and forcing myself and checking in with friends, debriefing after networking with people. And finally I was able to break through and it’s [00:07:00] been the best career decision.
Steve Fretzin: Yeah. And I, Still remember, specific images or videos of you, even in the last number of years where you’re hiding out in a bathroom or you’re like, I’m just so uncomfortable being in this room with these people. And I’m dealing with it the best I can. And I just think I think there’s another element of you that really shines through and it’s, that’s your level of authenticity.
Like you’ve decided I am this way, everyone kind of figuring it out anyway, I might as well lean into it.
Saja Raoof: Yes, exactly. The bathroom tip, Oprah Winfrey is actually an introvert. In an interview, she mentioned that she hides out in the bathroom, and that’s exactly what I do. And so I was really excited about embracing that and flaunting it.
And that tactic is an important tip that I give when I speak on networking for introverts. Which is manager energy. So if talking to people engaging in small talk is draining for you, then you have to make an intentional effort to step away every now and then, [00:08:00] recharge, be alone, and then go back into the networking circle.
Steve Fretzin: Yeah. I think also what I’m talking to people about too, especially the introverts I work with, is Set a goal of what you want to accomplish in a two hour networking event in person, for example, and feel okay, if you can meet three people and one of them is like someone that could do business with you or someone that you want to meet with for coffee.
I’m not saying to get three and run out the door, but know that you did it. Know that you got three cards or that you have three people to follow up with and be okay leaving. I always felt like I had to be the last person in the first person in the last person out. And these days, I don’t know if it’s my age or just how much long I’ve been doing this, but.
I want to get out early. Like I want to go for an hour and unless I’m running it, like I’m I’ll do an hour and I’m like, even the last provisors event in Chicago, the holiday party, I left early, and people didn’t know it. Cause I slunk out like a thief in the night, but I did it.
Like I saw the people I wanted to see
Saja Raoof: I’m out. I like the strategy of having in [00:09:00] mind exact people to talk to another way that I do that, especially with provisors at night or holiday parties. Is to go with fellow introverts I went with Angela Duns and Yanka Grob to a providers event a few months ago, all three of us were introverts, and we decided going in, we’re leaving in an hour, so we know exactly, When we’re going to gather and carpool back home, so that way it’s less stressful if you know that you’ll be there for a limited amount of time.
Steve Fretzin: Yeah.
Saja Raoof: And you could also go with an extrovert and they do all the talking while you
Steve Fretzin: I want it, but here’s something else, Saja, that I think is interesting. The concept of shine the light on others. We can use that here too. So my thought is like when I go to networking events, like I asked someone about what they do and they tell me they’re this kind of lawyer or whatever.
And I go, you probably want to meet these kinds of lawyers. And I go, yeah, that’s exactly what I asked. You know what? Come with me. And so I don’t sit there and I’m like trying to get business or sell people anything. I’m like, let me see how many people I can connect. And I [00:10:00] basically become a, like a host of the room or something like that.
I wasn’t asked to do that, but just, I find that I’m being useful as opposed to, just moving from person to person and you can make some really great friends that way too.
Saja Raoof: You asked me exactly that. You did exactly what you just talked about in our very first Troika back in, must’ve been 2020 or 21.
And it really stood out that you were so eager to help and support and not necessarily wait for an immigration referral opportunity. But to try to connect me and support my business in the meantime, and I’ve both incorporated that into the way I network and I mentor others. And I cite you,
For newcomer supervisors on exactly that.
Steve Fretzin: Well, much appreciated. And and I, look, I just appreciate anyone that is going about networking in a way that’s productive. For others in particular with the understanding that yeah, if you help enough other people, you’re, it’ll come back to you just have to, I think a patients and then be, I think there might have to be some intentional [00:11:00] coaching that some people don’t do, but I think is necessary because people don’t understand like who I really do want to meet.
And so I just have to explain to them and share with them. the situation or the type of person or the type of law practice or whatever to so they have a more clarity about it. Then it makes everything easier. So what kind of tips would you give for introverts that struggle with a getting out the door and then be like actually performing when they’re in that room?
We have hide in the bathroom. I don’t know. That’s one tip. What are, that’s a different tip. What are some things that you have found to be really successful in the way you do it?
Saja Raoof: Ask open ended questions, because that, once again, is a way for you to get them to do what they, what people like most, which is talk about themselves, talk about their career, talk about their business.
So you’re engaging in conversation, but it’s not small talk heavy. It’s you’re not being forced to come up with the conversation. [00:12:00] You are prompting the conversation and letting the other person run with it. I would also suggest being armed with one or two questions that you always insert into the conversation.
when there’s an awkward silence, when you need to the sort of questions that spare you the small talk. So for example, if I were to be asked about sports, I am completely closed. I can’t engage in that conversation. A question that I always like to ask is how did you get into your career? And that is an interesting hearing about their pathway towards their chosen career is always interesting to hear about.
And it also marks you as a good listener when you answer, when you ask thoughtful questions. And that’s important, not just so that people feel heard and connected to you, but also because if you’re a good listener, then when they refer you a client that’s a good quality for an attorney to have, that they would know about you.
In the group that I lead San Francisco 14, sometimes there’s complaints, as I’m [00:13:00] sure you get in your group, that somebody dominated the conversation in the breakout room. And as hard as you try as a group leader to control it, and you tell people one person or you assign somebody to facilitate the conversation, what it boils down to is if you dominate the conversation, then you are signaling that you’re not a good listener and that you’re not really interested in hearing about others.
And that affects your may affect your referability or just the
Steve Fretzin: relationship. It reflects. Yeah. You want people to like you and feel good about you. And when you make the conversation about them and focus on them, they just like you more and they’re going to want to either help you or they’re going to want to like, learn more about you.
Eventually. I almost feel like you could coin open ended questions as an introvert secret weapon. That’s how as an introvert, you want to play that game. Like just ask the open ended questions. I would also add preparation and that’s not always possible. But I think one thing I didn’t mention about that holiday party that I did, and this is, I don’t want to [00:14:00] say sneaky, but it was sneaky good, was I emailed.
Everyone on the photo list that I wanted to see, and I’m not saying if you didn’t get an email from me and you’re listening, I apologize, there were like maybe 20 people that were either clients or people I haven’t seen in a while that I really wanted. And I just said, I’m looking forward to seeing you tonight.
I want to make sure I find you and we get a couple minutes to talk. And that was my hit list. So anyone knew that I met that was like icing on the cake, but ultimately I prepared myself for that meeting, sent out the emails and another way to think about it is if you’re going to something, maybe become friends with the person who’s hosting, right?
If I’m coming to your meeting, I want to get in with you because you’re going to be the one that can point me around to the people that maybe make the most sense for me.
Saja Raoof: I love how we’re on the same wavelength. One of the things I tell my members when I onboard them to SF14 is when you guest another home group for the first time, always request a Troika with the group leader.
So I request a Troika with the Troika manager. The group leader, [00:15:00] because they decide who gets approved or not for guesting and they connect you to people in their group that are useful for you to get to know. And the Troika manager honors Troika requests, so and that’s a useful person to know. For sure, that’s very strategic networking, wiping in.
Steve Fretzin: Yeah. But that’s a great tip for the provisors folks listening to, request troikas. I’ve been requesting troikas with lawyers, which I think is also good, but I hadn’t thought about the host and the troika master, which is brilliant and I’m going to start doing that. I love that. With proven SEO and digital marketing strategies that drive actual clients to your firm, Rankings.
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Lawyers have been approaching me asking What’s the Rainmakers Roundtable? I tell them this is a special [00:16:00] place created exclusively for rainmaking lawyers to continue their journey of prosperity. Our program is unique as every member has A significant book of business and is motivated to grow it year after year.
Where else does this exist? If you’re a managing partner who’s looking to get off your lonely island and talk shop with America’s top rainmakers, please go to my website, Fretzin. com and apply for membership today. Any other things that you found introverts can do to turn their introversion into a positive, into sort of a strength?
Saja Raoof: Embrace the spotlight. And I know that sounds counterintuitive, but the author of The book that really changed my networking game and helped me finally go out and guest improvisers after eight months of fearing it and dreading it Dvora Zak, she wrote Networking for People Who Hate Networking. She wrote that when she was in college, she was a DJ.
Which is great introvert [00:17:00] because the spotlight is on you, but you’re not chit chatting with people. And that’s different than, for example, a bartender, where you do have to engage people. Johnny Carson was an introvert, as I mentioned Oprah is an introvert. When you embrace the spotlight, and with the networking that’s in the form of giving talks on your subject matter expertise.
Or giving testimonials to people who gave you a referral get comfortable with with the spotlight. And, in my case, when I became a group leader, I had no idea how to run a meeting, so I reached out to a public speaking coach Alda Cui Deborah Shames and David Booth, and trained with them regularly, as not just when I became a group leader, but just last month.
Knowing that I will be asked to speak on immigration quite frequently for the next four years. So I brushed up on my public speaking skills and you provide others value. And at the same time, there’s attention on you. And and you don’t have to chit chat with people. So it’s a win on all fronts.
Steve Fretzin: Yeah.
And how about [00:18:00] people who are either super enthusiastic, like maybe too much, lampshade on the head at the party. And then people who are like maybe super dominant, like really direct and close talkers and things that how do you handle like people that are just like the opposite of you and other introverts?
Saja Raoof: They make great allies. They encourage me. When I joined, when I created SF14, a lot of people on my EC are extroverts. And that’s helpful when we interview a candidate to join the group. An explicit instruction that I have for my EC numbers is, when we interview a candidate, you do the talking, and I will just quietly judge.
So that’s complementary energies. And then another thing, I am so outspoken about being an introvert. exactly to send a message to the people who are a little too, stand a little too close or just, it’s okay to embrace and it’s okay to talk about. And you’re educating people on your preferred energy level.
And then you learn with time and in the book that I [00:19:00] referenced. How to step away from situations when it becomes so overwhelming. That’s what the bathroom is for,
Steve Fretzin: right? Take a break and go re reset. Something that I also found, like I’ve been doing, do you know, are you familiar with disc assessments?
Yeah. Yes, that is. So that’s a disc is a behavioral assessment, everybody that allows us to understand like how people are built behaviorally. And when you meet someone for the first time, you can’t say, Hey, really great to meet you. Before we talk further, can you go for 12 minutes in this room and go take this disc assessment so I can communicate with you better?
Nobody’s really up for that. But I do teach disc in a way that helps to communicate better. And I know like when I’m talking to introverts, yeah. It doesn’t always work out this way especially with like prospective clients. I’ll just recognize, Hey, Steve, slow down. Another thing I might do is I might say, look, this is someone that really is going to need time.
They’re going to need steps. They’re going to need, you’re going to need to be patient. You’re going to have to put proof and evidence and information in front of them. And the least pressure you can have, that’s what this [00:20:00] person’s going to, and I’m never pressured anyway. But. I’m just saying I try to think about it from their perspective, how they would want to buy or how they would want to take in someone like me and try to like, bring my either, not my energy level down, but bring it down to like, where I think I’m just communicating more effectively.
So I think that’s just something else that. Like I’ll give you a quick example. I would say to somebody, this is a big decision. We’re going to work together. Let’s take this step by step. Let’s make sure that we, make sure all the pieces are in place. Want to make sure I give you enough time and information to make an important decision like this.
And for, I think for an introvert, that’s Oh, thank God. I’m hearing these things because it’s the opposite of what normally they’d hear or you’d hear. And it’s just, it’s what I feel anyway, but it also, I think just helps. To communicate in a way that’s going to resonate with someone who is going to take a little more time to make a decision and needs a little bit of space and just more information.
So any final thoughts before we wrap up? I want to get to our game changing book. And any kind of final [00:21:00] thoughts for the introverts out there that say, Hey, I want to build a successful law practice. And I just, I’ve heard a lot of great things here today, and I just need one more.
Saja Raoof: So I’m thinking of the book Quiet by Susan Cain.
And it talks about how the civil rights movement needed both MLK Jr. ‘s extroverted energy. And Rosa Parks is introverted energy. So it don’t allow yourself to think that successful networking or business development is something that extroverts have an advantage in it’s for introverts as well, and we can be at least as successful as anyone.
And it takes practice, and it gets easier with time. That does not constitute a promise to engage in small talk with anyone, just to be clear. And if I could do it, and I, my formative years, I lived ages 6 to 17 in Saudi Arabia, where there was a strong emphasis on being unseen and unheard for females.
If I could do it, anyone can. [00:22:00]
Steve Fretzin: I would just add, Embrace the content that exists out there, whether that’s the books you’ve mentioned, whether it’s videos on YouTube on the subject, talking with other people, getting coached, mentored, figuring out like how to, because I think systems in process are what Introverts crave to get through something right like a recipe for making a great meal.
You need to have a good recipe and that makes it less of a chance and less of a risk. You know what you’re doing and what you need to heat things up to. So I would say just become a student of the networking game. The Attorney’s Networking Handbook is on Amazon. You mentioned quiet and then you mentioned your game changing book, Networking People Who Hate Networking.
And that sounds like a lot of what we’ve been talking about, but is there Some highlights you want to just share about that book that really resonated with you.
Saja Raoof: It’s a very readable book that comes from the author’s own experience. When I saw the title, it spoke to me. I grabbed it right away. I gifted it to many people.
[00:23:00] She doesn’t tell you to change your nature. She tells you how, she shows you how to network accommodating your nature and leveraging it.
Steve Fretzin: Adapting? Is that kind of the theme? Adapt?
Saja Raoof: You are maintaining your nature as an introvert. Okay. Are adding measures to. Work with your natural energy. Okay.
Steve Fretzin: Okay,
Saja Raoof: The stepping away when you need to take a breather she talks about showing up to a mensa conference and she was sitting alone and somebody came to her and said, is this how you network?
And her response, I don’t know if she said it out loud, but her response was, yes, this is how I network because I’m charging my batteries and gathering my energy before I go in and engage. So it’s engaging with people, recognizing that you know that it’s an energy training activity and you build around that.
Steve Fretzin: And by the way, just as an aside, an annoying thing to say to somebody, especially a [00:24:00] stranger. Is this how you network? I don’t know that I’d have the moxie for that. Unless I was, if it was my best buddy and I wanted to bust someone’s chops, absolutely. But other than that’s obnoxious.
Saja Raoof: That’s being told to me at my first group leader summit improvisers a couple of years ago, but taking in good spirit.
Steve Fretzin: Okay. Okay. Got it.
Saja Raoof: I know where it’s coming from.
Steve Fretzin: Got it. Let’s wrap up with thanking our wonderful sponsors. Of course, everybody, we’ve got PymCon coming up in October. I know it seems a long time away, but the way things work, it’s going to be a blink away.
And for if you’re in personal injury, there’s no better conference to go than PIMCON. So check that out and PIMCON. org. And then of course the LawHer Podcast. Have you heard of the LawHer Podcast with Sonia? Really good. It’s mainly for women that lawyers that are looking for, how to be more successful as a female attorney.
So you might want to check that out and everybody check out LawHer Podcast. Fantastic. Saj, if people want to get in touch with you, they want to network with you, they want to use you for immigration, what are the best ways for them to reach you?
Saja Raoof: [00:25:00] I’m on LinkedIn Saja Rao, S A J A R A O F, and my website is myinitials, S A R.
law.
Steve Fretzin: And you’re absolutely, incredibly well known in the ProVisors universe, and you’ve been so wonderful to me and thoughtful, and I just appreciate you, and I appreciate you coming on the show. Sharing your wisdom and coming out of, into the out into the spotlight for a moment to to share your wisdom, because I think this is a subject that really isn’t hit very often.
And it’s a really important one at 50 percent of the lawyers are introverts and they’re hearing this and they’re going, Hey, I can do this too. So thank you so much.
Saja Raoof: Thank you very much, Steve. This was so wonderful and I look forward to seeing you in the provisor’s here.
Steve Fretzin: Yeah I’ll be out and about out in a boot.
Hey everybody. Thank you for spending time with Sajanai today I hope really hope you got some great takeaways I feel like there was just a lot we covered and a lot of great tips and things that you can use that are gonna Be super helpful to you in your career whether you’re an introvert or an extrovert I think you know, there’s always [00:26:00] learning opportunities So that’s what this show is all about be that lawyer everybody confident organized in a skilled rainmaker Take care.
Be safe. Be well. We will talk again soon.
Narrator: Thanks for listening to Be That Lawyer. Life changing strategies and resources for growing a successful law practice. Visit Steve’s website Fretzin. com for additional information and to stay up to date on the latest legal business development and marketing trends. For more information and important links about today’s episode, check out today’s show notes.