Sami Azhari: Becoming a Thought Leader to Grow Your Business

In this episode, Steve Fretzin and Sami Azhari discuss:

  • Networking as a referral source.
  • Qualifying referral sources and keeping an open mind.
  • There is always time to be a thought leader – the law is always evolving.
  • The power of social media and leveraging your work.

Key Takeaways:

  • You can be the most brilliant lawyer, but if you can’t generate business you’re not going to be successful.
  • There’s always opportunities to be made, there’s always a way that you can network with someone and get something out of it.
  • Look at how you are leveraging the interactions you have, the people you meet, and the work you do. There is time and effort that goes into all of your networking.
  • The biggest way to get noticed is not necessarily getting people to view your profile, but by showing that you’re active and commenting on other people’s posts.

“You have to want it. If you don’t want it bad enough, there’s somebody else out there that wants it worse than you do. If you’re not out there hustling, it’s just going to be a little difficult to sustain a practice and it’s certainly going to be impossible to build one.” —  Sami Azhari

Connect with Sami Azhari:


Email: [email protected]




Connect with Steve Fretzin:

LinkedIn: Steve Fretzin

Twitter: @stevefretzin

Facebook: Fretzin, Inc.


Email: [email protected]

Book: The Ambitious Attorney: Your Guide to Doubling or Even Tripling Your Book of Business and more!

YouTube: Steve Fretzin

Call Steve directly at 847-602-6911

Show notes by Podcastologist Chelsea Taylor-Sturkie

Audio production by Turnkey Podcast Productions. You’re the expert. Your podcast will prove it.



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Sami Azhari, Narrator, Steve Fretzin


Sami Azhari  [00:00]

I think the critical aspect is just making sure that you’re in front of people. And people just constantly remember you or you’re the first person that people think of, which is why, you know, it’s so important to do all these different things like speaking or writing. Because you don’t want to be emailing people every other week to remind them who you are, you want to have subtle ways of reaching out to them. And if they come across an article or come across a webinar or a podcast, and again, it’s a subtle way of reminding people who you are and what you do.


Narrator  [00:30]

You’re listening to be that lawyer, life changing strategies and resources for growing a successful law practice. Each episode, your host, author and lawyer, coach, Steve Fretzin, will take a deeper dive, helping you grow your law practice in less time with greater results. Now, here’s your host, Steve Fretzin.


Steve Fretzin  [00:53]

Hey, everybody, welcome to be that lawyer. I am Steve Fretzin. I hope you’re having a great day. You know, it’s just tough getting back into the swing of things like the COVID. And getting back in your office or not getting back in your office. And lawyers have never been busier. I’m talking to lawyers all the time, and they’re just absolutely swamped. If you are not swamped, then maybe look at what’s going on. Because there’s so much business going on right now. And so much money going on right now. It’s crazy. But in order to be successful, in order to continue to be relevant, you have to consider marketing, you have to consider efficiencies, business development. And in today, it’s all about thought leadership. And I’ve got a thought leader here. And then I’m going to introduce in a moment. And this guy I met through a national network change pro visors. He’s really well known within that community. And so shout out to pro visors folks nationally, and it just want to introduce the Sami Azhari. How’s it going, Sammy,


Sami Azhari  [01:44]

and so on. Well, thanks for having me. I’m really excited to be here.


Steve Fretzin  [01:47]

Yeah, I can tell you just, you know, like a ton of that passion and excitement. In the introduction. I know you’re super passionate. I’m just teasing you. But listen, man, give a little background on yourself and your firm and what you do.


Sami Azhari  [02:00]

Yeah, so I’m a drone, white collar criminal defense attorney. So basically, I represent people nationally, that are either being investigated by or whether it’s the FBI, ATF DEA or any government agency. And beyond that, whether they’ve been indicted in the US District Court, I would be representing them in criminal court. And so I practice in most states right now, I have matters from California, all the way to upstate New York and everywhere in between.


Steve Fretzin  [02:28]

And what’s your background as a lawyer as far as like, how many years and you’ve always been on your own? Or did you come from big firm? Like, what’s your background there?


Sami Azhari  [02:35]

Yeah, so I’m practicing for about 15 years now. I’m licensed in Illinois and California. So I started off in Chicago at a private firm, worked for a couple of different firms before moving out to LA and then moving back to Chicago. I’ve had my own firm for a little over eight years now focusing exclusively on federal and white collar crimes now. And it’s been great. I’ve really liked the trajectory that my career has gotten. And I just nothing but an upward trajectory from here.


Steve Fretzin  [03:04]

And what are some of the things that you sort of focused on early on in your career where you recognize that business development thought leadership marketing was important, it wasn’t just about billable hours?


Sami Azhari  [03:15]

Yeah, what I noticed was, especially with some of my friends that work that the larger firms say I didn’t work at any of the large firms is that what they were telling me is that they were tired of seeing the people that were bad lawyers become partners, or kind of get the credit for generating business, because they were, you know, friends with, let’s say, the Google co founders college roommate, or something like that. And that’s how I knew it was, you could be the most brilliant lawyer. But if you can’t generate business, it’s not going to get you anywhere, you’re not going to be able to be successful. If you have your own firm, obviously, and you’re not going to be successful. If you’re at a large firm, it doesn’t matter how brilliant you are, it’s all about bringing in the revenue. That’s the big picture.


Steve Fretzin  [03:54]

So lawyers that are sitting out there listening that don’t bring in the revenue, they’re just cranking hours, and they’re in their 40s, they’re in their 50s, are they missing the boat,


Sami Azhari  [04:02]

they’re definitely missing the boat, there’s a shelf life for that type of lawyer, there’s going to come a point where they’re working for someone that’s either younger than them, or less intelligent than them that’s bringing in the business that’s assigning work for them to do so if they can’t bring in the work, they’re going to have to rely on other people to bring in the work. And they’re basically going to be, you know, I guess, for lack of a better phrase, sitting second chair to somebody else.


Steve Fretzin  [04:25]

Okay. And before we get into thought leadership, I know that you’ve really built up your reputation as a networker. And so talk about that is that one of the ways that you sort of got out of that, you know, the billable hour or just the standard, you know, lawyering that you were doing, was it through networking.


Sami Azhari  [04:42]

Networking has always been a key part of my marketing. And the reason is, is that the best case is always came from other lawyers and other sources. So you get advertised all day with things like search engine optimization, or pay per click, but there’s a certain type of clientele you’re going to get through that and I think your fear focused on it. High Volume practice that might be the way to go by far, the best cases I’ve gotten over the last 15 years have always come qualified from another attorney or another referral source.


Steve Fretzin  [05:11]

Okay, so the idea that you go out, you meet other lawyers, you recognize who sort of runs across the kinds of business that they can refer to you build that relationship and reciprocate, if possible. Right.


Sami Azhari  [05:23]

Right, exactly. And I think a lot of people don’t see the opportunities that exist. So for example, you know, I was talking to another criminal lawyer the other day, and my advice to them was don’t discount meeting other criminal attorneys, because, you know, a criminal attorney might seen other criminal attorneys is competition, why would I get business from them, or what I told them was, well, let’s say you want to focus entirely on the Chicago market, you might want to meet lawyers in Lake County, or Weld County or McHenry that don’t want to come here. And on the same flip side, if you’re willing to travel, you might want to talk to the Cook County Attorneys about, hey, if you get cases in Lake or McHenry or wheeling, you don’t want to go think of me. So there’s always opportunities to be made, there’s always a way that you can network with someone and get something out of it, I refuse to think that there’s someone out there that you network with, and there’s no synergy there whatsoever.


Steve Fretzin  [06:11]

I agree with that to a point, I think what I try to vies my clients on is, you know, the faster you can figure it out, the better. So like if you figure out that criminal attorneys that do what you do, but in different jurisdictions, or that handle different size cases, or different types of matters, like that’s an angle that’s going to work, then focus on that, and meeting the local Avon lady, or the Amway salesman, or the life insurance guy who, you know, has been with Northwestern Mutual for two months, you know, that may not be maybe down the road, it might pan out, but in the immediate future, probably not so much. In my apologies to anyone from Avon, Amway, or Northwell. And, by the way, my guys, Northwestern guy, and he’s amazing. But I think, you know, the young guys that they have brought coming in, I mean, they got a tough road ahead. But anyway, from a standpoint of your time, as a busy professional, it is a lot about qualifying, who maybe has the greatest likelihood of running into the kinds of deals that they could feed you. Right.


Sami Azhari  [07:07]

Right, exactly. And it’s going to be different for different businesses. For attorneys, it’s almost invariably another attorney, that’s going to be a good referral source. So you know, if you’re, you know, an estate planning attorney, you might want to meet personal injury or civil rights attorneys to help their clients get large windfalls. And if you’re a criminal attorney, you might get a case for many other attorney from a client that has, you know, a need that is kind of a one off. So I agree with you that it’s best to try to find out who those people are early on and try to focus exclusively on that.


Steve Fretzin  [07:36]

Yeah. And I think there’s something else that you’re doing, that’s really terrific. So it’s not just networking, right, and like, Oh, I’m just gonna put all my eggs in that basket. You’re also focusing while you’re networking at being a thought leader in your space, what are some of the things that you started doing maybe early in your career that gave you an edge, or that gave you some confidence that being that continuing to try to work to be a thought leader would pay out?


Sami Azhari  [08:04]

Yes, I just kind of looked at attorneys that I respected and wanted to emulate. And I saw that there were not only attorneys that generated revenue, but there were also attorneys that were top of their field. And so I knew that if I wanted to emulate them, I would have to do things like and I wanted to do things like public speaking, writing, whether it’s book chapters or articles, and, you know, doing webinars, so I always wanted to have an opportunity to write on newer issues that are coming up, and the law kind of shaped the laws and advances and just really kind of focus on the academic side, not just on the practical side.


Steve Fretzin  [08:43]

Okay. And for the lawyers that are listening that are saying, Hey, man, I’m too busy to do that. I can’t write speak webinar. That’s all that sounds great. But I’m not going to do that.


Sami Azhari  [08:52]

Yeah, for people that say that I don’t have the time. I mean, my, what I tell people is like, there’s 24 hours in a day, and there’s seven days a week, there’s always time, and I’m sure people are using their time and less productive ways. And if someone just thinks, hey, you know, I, I’m just too busy with my practice. And that’s great that someone’s in that position, there’s always a way to free up some time to do something like that. And I think it should be a focus of every attorney to want to write something or do a give a lecture or maybe mentor someone. Those are ways that you can really kind of give back and shape yourself in other ways than just the attorney that bills or generates revenue.


Steve Fretzin  [09:29]

I mean, if you say to yourself, Hey, I just made it through the first season of whatever that means you have enough time to do this right? Off the bat that might be a good indicator. And listen, I’m all about balance. I work hard but I also must spend time with my family must fish with my son must take my wife on little weekend trip and hiking trips and stuff like that. And we just have to be smart about how we spend our time. And I think if you’re looking to network if you’re looking to be a thought leader, you know, you maybe just have to get some things written down like plan or something of how you’re going to approach it. So you’re not spinning your wheels and you’re going in a direction that’s going to be useful. Did you have some really strong indicators on things that you wanted to write on or that you wanted to speak on that you thought, you know, maybe I’m getting an early maybe I’m like an early adopter to this concept. And that’s going to elevate my game. You know,


Sami Azhari  [10:20]

I always knew the direction I wanted to take my practice, which is to kind of focus more on the federal side. And so those are the things I wanted to write about. And for example, a couple of things I wrote throughout the pandemic was on PPP fraud there, you know, the PPP loans went out to businesses all over the country. And I thought it was a timely subject. And I wrote a few articles on it. One was published in law 360. And the other one was published in ethical flashpoints, which is the Illinois Institute of continuing legal education. And for me, it was easy, because it was just a subject matter that interested me, I thought that was a timely topic. And I thought it was going to be a, there was gonna be a new wave of prosecutions coming down in federal court for people that fraudulently took off PPP loans. And then I also did a webinar on this subject as well. So I think naturally, you’ll just find something that interests you. And if you could just kind of put pen to paper, I think I can go a long way.


Steve Fretzin  [11:14]

Yeah, I mean, I hear a number of stories, examples of lawyers who really study like the law on like, what’s coming up the pike, like what laws I mean, so before marijuana was legalized, like, who is the innovator there who before COVID laws are coming out, for example, in labor and employment for, you know, who has to go back to work and prove that they, you know, show their validation? Like, I don’t know, the laws on that. But I’m just saying like, that’s just some sticky subjects, so that lawyers that can get in early on those kinds of topics, and write and speak on them, you know, they’re going to be ahead of the game on the thought leadership, right?


Sami Azhari  [11:49]

Oh, absolutely. I mean, especially if you are passionate about a particular subject area, I mean, you you get in early, I mean, you could shape the direction that the law goes in. I mean, the laws vary, evolving. That’s what we say there’s the practice of law, we’ll learn something new every day. There’s always changes. I mean, it moves slowly, and it moves slower than most lawyers, I think would like but if you really take the time to kind of feel passionate about a particular area, and you want to have it go in a particular direction, I think you should take and run with it. And Sammy,


Steve Fretzin  [12:17]

do you have a specific example of something that you did, where it did lead to either business or lead to like, just some recognition that you’re a thought leader on a particular subject?


Sami Azhari  [12:28]

Well, a couple examples. So I mean, just going back to that law, 360 article, you know, a law firm actually saw that article and then retained needed to conduct the internal investigation into their books and records to see if they have anything to worry about what the PPP alone, they took out, that was not an expected piece of business. That was just something that somebody read, apparently was impressed by, and then I ended up getting retained on it. Another example is, you know, I had written an article about there was a change in the law on this is years ago on obstruction of justice in Illinois. And the jury instructions that were read to the jury didn’t encapsulate the new change in the law. And so another attorney and I actually submitted a revised version of the jury instruction to the Illinois Supreme Court committee on pattern jury instructions, and that instruction was actually adopted. And so now, if someone were to pull up the jury instructions on obstruction of justice, it would be the jury instruction that this attorney and I wrote that most of the jury would get read to them. And that that’s a pretty good feeling. Thinking back to that,


Steve Fretzin  [13:27]

what other tips do you have for attorneys that are, you know, either going solo or have been solo and are just not feeling it, they’re not feeling the work coming in, or they’re not feeling that the networking is working, or that the thought leadership, they Hey, I tried to post on LinkedIn, it didn’t work, or I wrote an article, it didn’t go anywhere. They just say, well, what’s the point? So what would you say to them that would help inspire them to get them off their butts?


Sami Azhari  [13:51]

Yeah, I would say, you know, it may not be that you’re not doing something, it may just be that you’re not leveraging it the right way. So you might meet people, and you might not be getting business from them. But how are you leveraging the fact that you’ve met these people? What are you doing to get in front of them? Again? What are you doing to remind them what you do? And so I think it’s not so much that they might not be doing something, it’s just what are you doing to follow up on the work that you’ve done, and it does take time, you have to give it time, there’s a significant amount of effort that goes into it. And you could be the best lawyer in the world. If people just forget who you are, you’re not going to get business. So I think the critical aspect is just making sure that you’re in front of people and people just constantly remember you are you’re the first person that people think of which is why, you know, it’s so important to do all these different things like speaking or writing, because you don’t want to be emailing people every other week to remind them who you are. You want to have subtle ways of reaching out to them and if they come across an article or come across a webinar or a podcast, and it gets a subtle way of reminding people who you are and what you do.


Steve Fretzin  [14:52]

Okay, and let’s sort of wrap up in the next kind of 10 minutes with some suggestions of different mediums that Laurie yours. And we’ve already mentioned a few together. But let’s go through and maybe mentioned what the medium is. And then how does someone get started in that medium. So let’s play a game and go back and forth and work together to try to give some advice to some lawyers here. So one that you mentioned was writing what sort of if somebody says, you know, what I want to write on my subject, I want to become known as someone who really knows a subject through writing, how do you even get started with something like that?


Sami Azhari  [15:23]

Well, you find an publication that you want to be published in. So whether that’s a law review article, you have to make a decision whether it’s going to be a law review article, or whether it’s going to be more practical for other attorneys. And so you might think, Well, you might want to write for the Federal lawyer, which is the magazine for the Federal Bar Association, you might want to write for the champion, which is the magazine for the National Association of Criminal Defense Lawyers. So there’s a number of different avenues you can explore. And the first decision that you’d have to make is what type of article do I want to write? Who’s my target audience? And how much time do I have to put this together? And what do I want to get out of it?


Steve Fretzin  [15:59]

Let me add one thing to that. And then we’ll move on to the next point. And that is if you’re trying to reach out to the publication directly, or the editor of the publication directly, and they’re not being responsive, something that I did, and this got me into the daily law bulletin was in I think, you know, Dan Carter, shout out to Dan Carter. And I knew that that he writes for the Chicago law bulletin, and I called him up and I said, Hey, Dan, I’m thinking I may want to write for the Chicago Daily law bulletin. How did you do it? And who’s your editor? And can you get me in? And he said, Sure. And the next thing, you know, I’m talking to his editor, and she loves my writing. And next thing, you know, I’m writing for the bulletin, it wasn’t that hard. So maybe think about an Inside Connection when you’re trying to get into a specific publication, because a cold solicitation from you to the publisher, the editor, they may not take it seriously, or they may not look at it the same way as if you’re recommended him.


Sami Azhari  [16:52]

I absolutely agree with that. Yeah, if you have someone that you can reach out to in a contact, you can leverage, I would definitely take advantage of that.


Steve Fretzin  [16:58]

Okay, thank you. I appreciate that. And I think that’s good collaboration. You and I together, let’s talk about speaking, what about speaking? How do you get started?


Sami Azhari  [17:07]

Yeah. So I mean, you’d have to find a seminar that you think would be a good seminar for your speaking topics. So first, you have to decide what you want to speak about. And then you have to find the right audience. And so, you know, you can find a committee through the American Bar Association, you might find a seminar that’s happening through the Chicago Bar Association. So you have to kind of tailor your seminar or your particular topic to the audience. And then I think you just reach out to the organizations and they’re usually receptive to try to find out who’s interested in speaking, I started with the Illinois Institute of consumer legal education, they’re always looking for people to speak on a variety of topics, they have seminars throughout the entire year. So for people that really want to do it, it’s not that difficult to do, I would just kind of find out what you want to do and find the appropriate place to do it.


Steve Fretzin  [17:51]

Yeah, I agree with that. And similar try to get an Inside Connection. The other mistake that some lawyers sometimes make is they speak anywhere to anyone. And some cases go down a path where you’re essentially, you know, I know you mentioned earlier, Sammy about, you know, your competition can also be your referral sources. However, they can also be your competitors. So you may want to consider if you can speak to groups that are the buyers, you know, if you’re speaking to a roomful of GCS might be better if you’re a corporate litigator than not. So maybe consider like not just getting a good title and a good summary and a good program together. But also really think about who the audience is going to be that group can put together I’ll give a quick example, one of my coaching buddies to get him to QBO and I dei business development presentation. And we had some drop off, and we ended up not having the best crowd, but it was good practice. And we were fine with it. And so now what we’re doing is we’re talking to the National Hispanic bar, we’re talking to the Cook County Bar, we’re talking to, you know, all these different bar associations, where the audience’s they’re the audience that would be interested in di in business development and how they work together, are there. So that’s what I’m talking about, like go where kind of go where the food is, if you’re hungry, or go where the people are, you know, that could actually utilize your services or that have a need?


Sami Azhari  [19:12]

Yeah, I absolutely agree with that. I think, you know, as example for what I do, it wouldn’t make much sense to do a seminar in front of let’s say, the McHenry County Bar Association, there’s just not that much federal work coming out of Collier County. So my emphasis is more on the larger metropolitan cities across the country.


Steve Fretzin  [19:27]

Yeah, exactly. So again, the C is bloodied red with competition go where the blue ocean is. So Right, exactly. Okay. Well, you mentioned podcasting, which I’m happy to talk on. But, you know, I think that’s, I mean, obviously, it’s been around for many years, but I think it’s like every everybody has a podcast. I have a podcast, you have a podcast. Everybody’s got a podcast. However, what is unique about podcasting, in your mind, as far as like helping someone be a thought leader?


Sami Azhari  [19:52]

Yeah, well, I think it’s a little bit more of an informal it’s a little bit more informal than either article that you’re publishing or a seminar that you’re putting together. So I think it just gives people more practical advice and a more condensed timeframe. And so I think it’s just you’re gonna get something different out of a podcast and you are going to a seminar and a seminar might focus more on the legal aspects, or academic side of the law, when I’m doing a podcast, it’s more about the business side of things, which is not something that you would typically address in an article or a seminar.


Steve Fretzin  [20:21]

Yeah. And what I found is that it’s also been amazing to connect with my guests. I mean, it’s one thing to have an audience and hey, everybody out there, I appreciate you. But Sammy, you and I are gonna get to know each other better. The other guests that I have on, we learn about each other in this and we find that there might even be collaborations or things to do after the fact, I can’t tell you how many of these legal marketing guys I’ve become friendly with, and even the legal coaches to my competition, we become friendly, we realize, you know, what, we’re really not competitors. To your point earlier, you know, we actually can collaborate and work together and refer each other. So it’s just amazing, you know, that if you have a concept on a podcast, whether it’s relevant to the law, or whether it’s something outside of it, it might be your jam, it might be your thing to do to kind of build your thought leadership or build your name out, you know, even if, again, it’s not, it could be a cooking show, but everyone on the cook that’s listening to cooking show knows that your lawyer, right? You’re the lawyer who cooks, okay, or the lawyer who loves wine or whatever, that’s okay. That’s another way to go. Is there one other? Let’s get one other medium down? What other one more way to become a thought leader? What do you think? Well, I


Sami Azhari  [21:28]

think you know, social media to a certain extent, depending on what you’re putting out there. So yeah, I’m a big advocate of LinkedIn, I think you can connect with some great people. And I think you can collaborate pretty well on that forum. And so I’ve connected with a lot of great lawyers that I was able to kind of pick their brain on a variety of legal issues. And I don’t discount the power of social media. Now, you might not be publishing a 10 page article that you put together on LinkedIn and have, that’s where people are gonna read it. But you could definitely kind of leverage the fact that you’ve written something and blast it on LinkedIn for other people to see. But I never discount the power of the contacts you can make on LinkedIn.


Steve Fretzin  [22:08]

I think LinkedIn is like one two punch on one hand, it’s great for branding, if you can get content out there that’s interesting and relevant and motivational to your audience, the people that are connected to you. And then the other side of it is if you can proactively use it, for business development, making new contacts, introducing yourself to new people, you know, even commenting on other people’s posts can get a relationship started. Have you done much with that?


Sami Azhari  [22:33]

Absolutely. I think the biggest way to get noticed that comment, and I think what’s best is not necessarily get people to view your profile, but see that you’re active and commenting on other people’s posts. And I think one of my things that I try to do is always give people you know, some sort of comment, whether it’s liking something or posting something just to give what they’re putting some, if I like your comment that it gets blasted even further. And so when people see that you’re doing that they kind of sense that you have other things in mind than just what suits your needs. I think that’s important.


Steve Fretzin  [23:05]

I spoke to a lawyer this morning in Tokyo, who reshard, one of my posts with some commentary about, yeah, this is something Steve Fretzin talks about all the time, and he really knows his stuff. And it started a conversation. And now she’s going to be on my show. She’s one of the first female lawyers that started her own practice in Tokyo. Obviously, she’s getting you know, we’re taping this in July right before the Olympics. And so she’s all you know, jazzed up about it. But the point is, is that, you know, there’s all these new connections, and all these really relevant connections that can be made on LinkedIn, if you just spend a little bit of time there and have a little bit of focus. So I think that’s really helpful. So again, you know, that’s, you know, four or five different ways that you can become a thought leader and just get started. And you don’t have to do them all just pick one, and just get something going something cooking, that’s going to get you a little further along in your career a little further along in how you develop your brand, your personal brand. And CME people want to get in touch with you, they want to network with you, they want to check out your website or whatever. How do they reach out to you?


Sami Azhari  [24:06]

Yeah, my emails, great. LinkedIn is great. So I’m very active on LinkedIn, I’m really good about checking emails. So those are the two best ways to get a hold of me.


Steve Fretzin  [24:14]

Yeah, we’ll put that all in the show notes as well. So you’ll be taken care of on that. And just want to thank you, again, for spending some time sharing your wisdom. You know, this is not rocket science. Three, this is common sense stuff. However, you have to be have some level of ambition, you have to have some level of motivation, right to want to grow a law practice to want to become a thought leader if you do enough of it over time. Right, Sammy? I mean, it adds up.


Sami Azhari  [24:37]

Absolutely. I think you have to want it. If you don’t want it bad enough. There’s somebody else out there that wants it worse than you do. So if you’re not out there hustling, it’s just going to be a little difficult to sustain a practice and it’s certainly going to be impossible to build one.


Steve Fretzin  [24:50]

Yeah, greed. I appreciate your time and being on the show. And certainly keep in touch through our providers in our Chicago connection. Yeah, thanks for having me. Yeah, and hey, and Thank you everybody for listening to the show and hopefully taking some notes at least some mental notes. But you know, Sammy and I are both interested in helping lawyers to grow business and be lawyer someone who’s confident organized to skilled Rainmaker. So you know, stay on top of it. I know it isn’t easy. And I know things are busy or things are crazy right now. But you know, book out some time and try to figure out, you know, one or two things that you can do to advance your career or advance your interests. And I think, you know, if you stick with it, it’ll, it’ll take and you’ll see the movement, it may. It may not happen overnight, but it’ll happen over time if you stick with it. So, everybody, thanks again for spending some time with us and be well be safe and we’ll talk soon.


Narrator  [25:41]

Thanks for listening to be that lawyer, life changing strategies and resources for growing a successful law practice. Visit Steve’s website For additional information, and to stay up to date on the latest legal business development and marketing trends. For more information and important links about today’s episode, check out today’s show notes