In this episode, Steve Fretzin and Scott Love discuss:
- The value of finding a specialized niche in legal recruiting
- Strategies for building resilience in a challenging field
- Techniques for effectively positioning oneself as a trusted expert
- The importance of focusing efforts to maximize productivity and impact
Key Takeaways:
- Focusing exclusively on corporate, finance, and private equity law clients allowed Scott to build deeper client relationships and better anticipate client needs.
- Analyzing hiring and attrition data from law firms helps identify ideal clients whose needs align well with a specialized niche, enhancing recruitment effectiveness.
- Narrowing service to a limited number of retained clients at a time can improve service outcomes by allowing more dedicated and strategic client development.
- Success in niche recruiting relies on building a brand distinct from competitors, using thought leadership, targeted marketing, and leveraging unique personal strengths to attract high-value clients.
“If you’re dealing with sophisticated people, you really need to find not just uniqueness but distinction. And if you don’t have it, you can build it through thought leadership.” — Scott Love
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Episode References:
Pitch Anything: An Innovative Method for Presenting, Persuading, and Winning the Deal by Oren Klaff: https://www.amazon.com/Pitch-Anything-Innovative-Presenting-Persuading/dp/0071752854
About Scott Love: Scott Love is the founder of The Attorney Search Group, a legal recruiting firm. His practice focuses on partner transitions and law firm mergers, with specialized expertise in recruiting for global law firms in the areas of corporate, finance, private equity, and related practices.
Connect with Scott Love:
Website: https://attorneysearchgroup.com/
Show: The Rainmaking Podcast: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-rainmaking-podcast/id318840415
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/scotttlove/
Connect with Steve Fretzin:
LinkedIn: Steve Fretzin
Twitter: @stevefretzin
Instagram: @fretzinsteve
Facebook: Fretzin, Inc.
Website: Fretzin.com
Email: [email protected]
Book: Legal Business Development Isn’t Rocket Science and more!
YouTube: Steve Fretzin
Call Steve directly at 847-602-6911
Audio production by Turnkey Podcast Productions. You’re the expert. Your podcast will prove it.
FULL TRANSCRIPT
[00:00:00] Steve Fretzin: Hey, my Be That Lawyer fans. Are you struggling with the same uphill battle? Growing new business without losing your sanity? It might be time management, a lack of a structured plan, or outdated business development strategies that are keeping you from reaching your full potential. But what if I told you there’s a better way?
[00:00:16] Steve Fretzin: In this exclusive, no presentation, no PowerPoint, interactive 60 minute session, you’ll work directly with me on your specific challenges. This event is a no brainer. Please join me on November 15th from 1 to 2 p. m. Central to level up your B. E. D. game. Seating is limited to only the first 20 attorneys who register, so get to it now.
[00:00:35] Steve Fretzin: Go to my website, Fretzin. com slash events, to sign up today, and hope to see you there.
[00:00:44] Narrator: You’re listening to Be That Lawyer. Life changing strategies and resources for growing a successful law practice. Each episode, your host, author and lawyer coach, Steve Fretzin, will take a deeper dive, helping you grow your law practice in less time.
[00:01:10] Steve Fretzin: I hope you’re having a lovely day today. We are here for you, the lawyer looking to grow and expand and be that lawyer. Confident organized in a skilled rainmaker twice a week every week coming up on like, I don’t know 450 podcast Scott That’s not so bad in about five years, right? That’s pretty good.
[00:01:27] Steve Fretzin: Pretty good run. We’re having a run at it I’m so happy you’re here. You’re one of my favorite people I feel like every time we get together magic happens like whatever conversation we get into we’re know we’re gonna have fun We know we’re gonna learn something from each other In a podcast setting, we know we’re going to share a bunch of great takeaways.
[00:01:43] Steve Fretzin: So thrilled that you’re here. You have a mantra that you live by, and I need my wife to say this as her mantra, like Over and over throughout the day, and she’s gotten better because she just worries about everyone and everything, but the quote is, I choose not to let external circumstances govern my emotions.
[00:02:02] Steve Fretzin: I mean, so powerful. Talk to us about that and welcome to the show, man. Yeah, thank you for having me here.
[00:02:07] Scott Love: So I do recruiting for law firms. I recruit partners and we’ll talk more about the niche in a little bit, but a lot of the deals I work on, some of them don’t close, they fall apart. And so I’ve had to learn how to build effective resilience muscles.
[00:02:20] Scott Love: And one secret I’ve learned, Steve, is that I can be extremely uncomfortable and miserable for long periods of time and be okay with that. And I learned it at the Naval Academy. I learned, that’s how I learned how to deal with structured adversity, which gave me strength in this business. Where, it’s not about me, it’s about the placement between the firm and the partner, and sometimes that doesn’t align with my own interests.
[00:02:43] Scott Love: The partner wants to go to a different firm, or whatever, you know, and so, you have to just accept it. And that’s why I tell everybody I talk to, I said, it’s not about me, it’s not the Scott show, my job is to channel your self interest, so it intersects with law firm strategy as a legal recruiter. But sometimes I’m not the one to make that placement.
[00:03:01] Scott Love: And so I came up with that mantra to tell me, in my mind. It’s okay. I’m not going to let this event govern how I feel. I choose how I feel. I have a choice. No matter how bad it gets, we have a choice on how we respond to adversity.
[00:03:15] Steve Fretzin: Boom. There’s your seminar in three minutes. There we go. And so that’s going to wrap up our show everybody for today.
[00:03:20] Steve Fretzin: I want to thank you for being here and shortest episode ever. So my, I’m picking on my wife. She doesn’t listen to this show, so I can say whatever I want and she’ll never know. But she just worries about everything and everybody. And like, she’s right. Of course, always worried about her teenager. And I just, I said, honey, you need to say, this is stupid if you’re listening.
[00:03:39] Steve Fretzin: I just, but I say this to her and she likes it one, two, three. And then she says, let it be, because it’s like, it’s not you. It has nothing to do with you. His decisions to leave socks everywhere or to, you know, quit a job or do anything ridiculous. Like. She just thinks it’s all about her. Like not, she like no ego there.
[00:03:59] Steve Fretzin: It’s just like, she’s just like, she’s a reflection of us or, but whatever it might be in your life, like there’s things you can control and there’s things that you can’t and you’ve got to separate them because there’s no way you can live your life worrying about things all the time that you can’t control.
[00:04:12] Steve Fretzin: I know. I love it. Everybody, Scott Love is the president of the attorney search group. He’s a, I think this is your second time on the show. And do me a solid and give everybody a little bit of a flavor for you and how you came to be in legal recruiting.
[00:04:26] Scott Love: Yeah, absolutely. So I started, I mean, I was in the Navy.
[00:04:29] Scott Love: I was third in command of a Navy ship when I was 22. I was an organizational development consultant and leadership trainer right after that. And I wanted to go out in the business world and I got into sales and I sold for a telecom company. So I learned good, solid sales skills, how to build trust, how to ask questions, how to lead people forward.
[00:04:48] Scott Love: And then in 1995, Steve, before the internet. I got into the recruiting business, faxing resumes. I did well, started a sales training company, niche within recruiting. And many of my clients were legal recruiting firms. I didn’t even know there was such a thing. So when I wanted to get out of training and back into recruiting, I decided I wanted to pursue the legal.
[00:05:07] Scott Love: Industry as my niche, specifically recruiting partners, some associates, but partners, mostly groups, sometimes law firm mergers for AMLaw 100 and AMLaw 200 firms. And so that’s how I got into it. And I go to bed Sunday night excited about Monday. The work’s a lot of fun. It’s meaningful and it’s very rewarding.
[00:05:25] Scott Love: Well, yeah, you’re making
[00:05:26] Steve Fretzin: changes in people’s lives that could last for the rest of their careers, potentially. So it’s, it’s a big deal. And. I mean, right now, I mean, maybe I don’t know if we want to give a state of the union a little bit, but like, I mean, unemployment for lawyers, I keep talking about in the show, people are getting sick of hearing me say how low it is and how busy lawyers are and everybody’s looking for help.
[00:05:43] Steve Fretzin: And In lawyers, I mean, they’re just getting poached left and right. And so there’s a negative connotation about that, but ultimately a lot of times it works out for everyone’s best interest. You don’t have to write, you don’t have to change. It’s just looking at options.
[00:05:57] Scott Love: Yeah, exactly. And the options are out there for the right person.
[00:06:01] Scott Love: And that’s what I do is really align. It’s, it’s a game. I use game theory as a way to determine which options are the best for a candidate and vice versa. And I’ve kind of niched my business to where You know, I work at it in different way compared to most of my competitors. In a certain area that a lot of people don’t work in.
[00:06:17] Scott Love: Well, I mean, a lot of people work in it, but nobody really works in it exclusively.
[00:06:21] Steve Fretzin: Yeah. When you say game theory, just explain that a little bit for everybody.
[00:06:24] Scott Love: Sure. Knowing that we want to make decisions where there is a favorable outcome that is likely. And what variables can we control or influence to strengthen the probability of success?
[00:06:39] Scott Love: So that’s what I look at. So I look at all the different variables, one of, so for example, today I talked to a partner, this is his book, his niche, this is his sector that he does, et cetera, et cetera. Oh, well, let’s look at these firms. And so I’ve done this so many times, I know what problems exist when moving a partner from one firm to another before they even become problems.
[00:06:58] Scott Love: In fact, Steve, I call myself the midwife of the placement firm. Because I know what to do before it becomes an issue. And no matter how smooth it might look, Oh, I don’t need a headhunter to help me move. I’ve got friends over there. There will be something that could derail that placement, such as a conflict.
[00:07:17] Scott Love: What are we going to do about this conflict? Or other things also. So that’s my whole philosophy of what I do. Well, I know we’re going to talk
[00:07:22] Steve Fretzin: about niching, but the first question, is it niche or niche? That’s the first question. It depends. If you want to be
[00:07:27] Scott Love: rich, it’s a niche. And if you want to be rich, it’s a niche.
[00:07:30] Scott Love: Ah. That’s why it depends. Are we talking to Americans or Canadians? It depends. Okay.
[00:07:37] Steve Fretzin: Oh. All right. That’s how I look. But here’s the first question. Are lawyers who niche in a practice, we’re going with niche by the way that niche in a practice, are they typically more successful than when they’re not?
[00:07:49] Steve Fretzin: And you may know that better than others because you’re the one moving them around from place to place.
[00:07:54] Scott Love: Yes, if there’s enough depth in terms of economic potential, but yes, absolutely. Yes. All right. So the
[00:08:01] Steve Fretzin: reaches are in the niches. That’s right. That’s what we’re going with. All right. So then you and I have both decided in our careers to niche down and I’ll give my two cents about it.
[00:08:13] Steve Fretzin: And then I want to hear yours and then let’s meet in the middle. All Thank you. I was doing sales training for entrepreneurs and for sales teams back in 2004. By the way, coming up on 20 years now, like it just happened. So people listening to just 20 years, never thought or glimmer in my mind about lawyers, right?
[00:08:31] Steve Fretzin: I had my dad, they were the lawyer. Everyone knows we’re talking to retired after 40 years and he never needed any business. He always had plenty of business in the whole story. Also by the way, generalist, not an, not someone that was in a niche back in the seventies, eighties, nineties. So, but I found a need in the industry working with lawyers when the recession hit 2008 2009 and I started getting flooded with calls from lawyers and law firms saying, Hey, the phone has stopped ringing.
[00:08:57] Steve Fretzin: I just got fired. I just, you know, my hours have been cut way down. We hear good things about you, what you do with Pete, with our friends, our entrepreneurs. And so that’s how I got into it. And I didn’t say, all right, well, day one, I’m just, oh, this is something I’m going to do it. I did it over like a year or two when I started to realize, Hey, this is becoming a large part of my business.
[00:09:16] Steve Fretzin: So that’s sort of like how I got into it slowly, but not 10 years, like two years. How did you then find, did you go right into legal or did you do
[00:09:25] Scott Love: something more broad first? Well, I got right into legal and my niche was Washington, D. C., any practice area, whether it’s antitrust, government contracts, litigation, regulatory, what type of regulatory, FDA, I can do that, telecom, I can do that, healthcare, I can do that.
[00:09:39] Scott Love: Okay, so it’s more location focused. Yeah, and then transactional, and then intellectual property, patent litigation, trademark, prosecution. And so there’s like, you know, 20 different things you could do in one city. And I found that is an effective way to do it. But over a period of time, I then got even more spread out.
[00:09:56] Scott Love: Where now I want to hire people to do associates. Now I want to do associates. Now I want to do this and this and this. I want to do keynote speaking outside of the legal industry. I want to write another book. And I just got too far away from any real substantive result. And so there was no nexus connecting a lot of those.
[00:10:12] Scott Love: And so I paired this off, I paired that off. And I focused on finding an itch. And the question I asked myself was how many placements do I want to make in a year? And that I could answer that question easily. And can I make enough placements in a year working in this area? Yes. And it reminded me of a time when my daughter, who’s 12.
[00:10:30] Scott Love: Was probably about six or seven and we went to Chuck E. Cheese for her birthday party celebration. You ever been to a Chuck E. Cheese birthday party? A long time ago, yeah.
[00:10:38] Steve Fretzin: Yeah, with the big
[00:10:39] Scott Love: rat? I got
[00:10:40] Steve Fretzin: really sick in the ball pit. No, I’m just kidding. They couldn’t get me out
[00:10:44] Scott Love: of there. Paralyzed. Well, you know, they have this wind tunnel, right?
[00:10:48] Scott Love: They’re blowing this wind around you and you got hundreds of tickets flying. And you see this kid in this wind tunnel. They got 30 seconds and their goal is to chase as many, grab as many tickets that are flying around. Yeah. Yeah. And I see my daughter in there and she walks out holding one ticket. And I think that’s what a lot of people struggle with.
[00:11:07] Scott Love: They’re trying to teach too many things. And so this is months ago, Steve. It’s such a great visual, by the way. Yeah, thank you. Months ago, and I decided I’ve got a niche in something. Should I do ip? Most of my placements been I and ip. I thought about that, but then I thought, really. What type of vibe do I have that resonates the most with people in a certain practice there and there’s people in corporate, people in finance, people in client and that are in finance.
[00:11:32] Scott Love: Why is that? Because they’re focused on deals. They’re focused on transactions. And, you know, my brand as legal recruiter, I tell people I’m a credential expert in client development. And that’s the lens which I look because I can see good business opportunities. And with my podcast that you’ve been on twice, the rain making podcast, that kind of resonated with that vibe or that vibe did with that particular group of people more than others.
[00:11:56] Steve Fretzin: So I
[00:11:56] Scott Love: did a few beta tests. I would leave messages for people. My niche is this. I know you get calls from other headhunters. This is what I do. People would call me back just because of that. So I got rid of everything else, but that, and what I found was that it gave me more time to think about the problems that these people face that have these issues in common, not IP issues, not litigation issues, but just corporate transactional finance, private equity issues.
[00:12:24] Scott Love: And it gave me more time to really kind of go deeper and deeper into pursuing client development opportunities in that area. What trade associations should I look at attending? Where should I look at sitting on panels within this niche? And so I’m kind of still at the infancy of that within this particular sector, but I had enough proof of concept because, and I believe this, that you become a big deal when enough people think, You’re a big deal.
[00:12:51] Scott Love: That’s how you become a big deal. Yeah, it’s not when you
[00:12:53] Steve Fretzin: say you’re a big deal, it’s when other
[00:12:54] Scott Love: people say you’re a big deal. Exactly. Yeah,
[00:12:56] Steve Fretzin: I agree with
[00:12:56] Scott Love: that. And so I saw, I had, and I changed my model, not getting into too many details here, where instead of working with 60 or 70 firms, because I’ve met with 70 firms in person over the years, I’m only going to work with two at a time on six month retainers, and that’s it.
[00:13:13] Scott Love: And I’m going to get to know them. Now, everybody I talked to on those engagements, they’re conflicted out. They can’t talk to that firm. Well, I actually know others that I could present you to. So I found it gave me more I think more opportunities, more time, more head space to really think about those two firms.
[00:13:31] Scott Love: As a result, I get to know those firms better, meet with the chairman, chief marketing officer, things like that. And so, that’s a question I would pose to those people listening right now. Let’s get to the end result. How much money do you want to make or excuse me? What is the economic return you’re looking for in an annual basis in your life?
[00:13:48] Scott Love: And how much business and where does that come from for you to reach that goal? And well,
[00:13:54] Steve Fretzin: but Scott, it’s letting go. I think like the tickets it’s letting go of I’m gonna take on this family I don’t do family law, but you know what? I need the money I’ll take on this family law thing or I’m gonna You know, just pick up whatever I can pick up or, you know, it, there’s just, there’s a point where you’ve got to think about what’s best for you.
[00:14:14] Steve Fretzin: What do you enjoy? I mean, I want to make a list actually of the things that lawyers should be thinking about to make a decision to niche down. I told you in my kind of story that. I found a need in an industry. So lawyers don’t learn business development in law school. They don’t learn at the law firm level 90 plus percent of the time.
[00:14:33] Steve Fretzin: And here’s an area where they can make a lot of money and save a lot of time. And I have all the resources and ability to help them. So I think number one, if we’re going to make a list of five to 10 things would be, there’s a need that you found a need in an industry, the way you did in finance and private equity and deal makers.
[00:14:52] Steve Fretzin: Okay. What would you say is another thing that would determine what someone should be thinking about as they niche, decide to make a niche down?
[00:15:01] Scott Love: I think what you just said, what do I need to say no to and how can I, and if I can’t, how can I leverage that? Okay. So for example, niche, finance, corporate, private equity.
[00:15:12] Scott Love: Well, I guess what? I’ve got some other clients that I’ve got some goodwill and they’ve given me other opportunities. I’ve got somebody on my team. That’s working on that. Okay. I’m not saying no as a company to them, but the lion’s share of my time is, and those two firm areas really it is, but, but I can still service that client.
[00:15:30] Scott Love: So that’s something that somebody listening here, can you share that work with somebody else and still have some sort of economic benefit? So
[00:15:37] Steve Fretzin: let me say this. So like you have maybe another, even another recruiter that does other stuff and you’re feeding them the things that aren’t a good fit for you.
[00:15:44] Steve Fretzin: Maybe they’re feeding you back.
[00:15:45] Scott Love: Exactly right. And that opens up another opportunity where if there’s another legal recruiter that enjoys talking to IP partners, I’ve got enough depth of context for them to come on over. Now, there’s another business opportunity. Not right now. I want to get a little bit more traction in here.
[00:16:02] Scott Love: But as somebody is looking at what can they say no to, is there a way they can leverage that without getting too distracted from the core? And so I think looking at. And I also think getting fanatical about your goal, something that happened to me prior to the change I made was reading the book, 10x. Is easier than 2x written by what’s his name?
[00:16:22] Scott Love: Dan Sullivan. That was literally
[00:16:24] Steve Fretzin: two shows one or two shows ago. We had that as the book of the game changing book
[00:16:28] Scott Love: Yeah, it’s game changing because like he said if you want to do twice as much there’s 10 different ways You can do that. But if you want to do 10 times as much There’s usually only one way, and when you get that clear, you start looking at what are the things you need to get, let go of, to find that way, and that’s what I did.
[00:16:46] Scott Love: And I realized, can I do a certain amount, a dull amount, not in 2025, but in 2026, realistically? Absolutely. But I can’t do it with what I was doing before. I’ve got to go deep. I’ve got to be known as the person that does
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[00:17:28] Steve Fretzin: Lawyers have been approaching me asking, what’s the Rainmakers Roundtable? Well, I tell them this is a special place created exclusively for rainmaking lawyers to continue their journey of prosperity. Our program is unique as every member has their own story. a significant book of business, and is motivated to grow it year after year.
[00:17:45] Steve Fretzin: Where else does this exist? If you’re a managing partner who’s looking to get off your lonely island and talk shop with America’s top rainmakers, please go to my website, Fretzin. com, and apply for membership today. But a great example of turning work away outside of what the benefit of giving it to others and getting that potential reciprocation is you get all that time back that you can invest in business development or you can invest in your marketing to that niche.
[00:18:14] Steve Fretzin: So I mean, you’re giving up something, but I think ultimately you’re getting back a lot more if you make the right. And again, you don’t want to make the snap judgment or decision. You know what, just out of nowhere, I’m going to go after X. Like, I think it’s something that sort of takes me to my number. My number two is.
[00:18:30] Steve Fretzin: Like, have you had success in the space? If you know that your people are in finance and you know that that’s your personality and they’re going to fit best with you, then you’ve had success in that space. Like, find what you love and find out what you’re successful in over a period of time and then niche down into it.
[00:18:48] Steve Fretzin: Don’t do it tomorrow because you don’t, without even knowing that it’s something you’re successful in.
[00:18:54] Scott Love: Yeah, I think it, it does take a realistic assessment of where you are going to be received. And looking at proof of concept before you make that decision. Don’t bet on it unless you know you have a high likelihood of winning.
[00:19:09] Scott Love: How is that based on past wins? If you haven’t won in something in that area, it might not be the best place to spend time. Look at what you’ve done. I think that’s why, make mistakes, find out what works, find out what doesn’t work. You don’t have to be married to a niche, you can change it shortly, but, and then one of the things I started doing before I got to this decision, I was going down this path, and then I realized before I told too many people, it’s not the best thing for me, and I went over here.
[00:19:37] Scott Love: I think of it, it’s like this, this is advice that I’ve given to a lot of people, including my 23 year old son, and many people I talk to, you’ve got three doors in front of you, right? Door number one, number two, number three. What you think you want is behind door number three. And you open it up and you walk through, and what do you find?
[00:19:52] Scott Love: Three more doors. And you might have to do that two or three times before you find what you really, really want. And so I think, you can’t be afraid, this might not work out. I might need to adapt again and be okay with that. But that’s why you don’t want to shoot a cannon at it. Shoot a bullet at it. Make sure you hit.
[00:20:10] Scott Love: And then shoot the cannon at it before you know, so that way you know that there’s a really good chance I’m going to be successful with this. If you haven’t had any proof of concept, I wouldn’t take that bet. I would find proof of concept first before you make a pretty big change.
[00:20:26] Steve Fretzin: Yeah, me, maybe even look at the market a little bit to say, look, I noticed that there’s, you know, a thousand people in the 10 mile radius that do this and I’m the last one to the game.
[00:20:36] Steve Fretzin: Maybe that’s not the best way to go. Like when I started working with lawyers. We’re going back 17 years. There were a few players in the game and that was really about it. And now, I mean, anyone that has done any kind of book of business and doesn’t want to build books anymore, they just want to coach people as hunger shingle and said, I’m a lawyer coach.
[00:20:56] Steve Fretzin: So, and good for them, by the way, if that’s their passion and their joy, you know, I think it’s a little crowded. I mean, maybe there’s just. enough lawyers that it’s not, but I think it’s, you know, there’s other things to do too.
[00:21:08] Scott Love: And those people that didn’t do that said, I want to be a legal recruiter in 2021.
[00:21:12] Scott Love: Yeah, right. Which is why I found, man, it’s harder to make placements now. And I know more what’s going on. And I looked at what is the number one part of the process, somebody trusting me, somebody calling me back, you know, somebody getting in front of me, if I can get in front of them, I can win them over.
[00:21:29] Scott Love: And how do I get in front of them, nitching in their area of expertise? And so what you said, people are going to give up things, but what you gain is the time, like you said, Steve, which is absolutely true. But you also gain trust because people want to work with specialists.
[00:21:45] Steve Fretzin: Okay.
[00:21:47] Scott Love: And so that’s how I’ve done it.
[00:21:48] Scott Love: Then I followed a model from somebody else that did that in a different practice area in my own industry and talk with him about that. And so I was able to at least have a template for making those changes.
[00:21:58] Steve Fretzin: The other piece of it that leads into right off of what you just said is the ability to brand.
[00:22:03] Steve Fretzin: I mean, if you’re trying to brand 10 different practice areas, or even just litigation without a niche. It’s very challenging to do. There’s a lot of litigators and how are you special or unique? So I think there’s something to, all right, I’m a litigator, but I focus in the cannabis space, or I’m a litigator, but I focus in, you know, the Bitcoin or whatever it might be.
[00:22:24] Steve Fretzin: Like people, you can become much more quickly and highly recognized. picking an industry or picking, you know, an area of practice that isn’t necessarily as crowded, but also where you can become known versus being very general.
[00:22:39] Scott Love: Right. And two things I’ll say to that, not just being unique, but even being distinct.
[00:22:44] Scott Love: What can you say about yourself that nobody else can say about themselves? That’s what I ask every law firm I work with. What can your firm say about itself that nobody else can say about themselves? And sometimes How do they even answer that? Most of them probably can’t. Well, I tell them, oh, and Yeah. I can’t, you can’t use the word culture.
[00:23:00] Scott Love: One law firm leader. Well, describe your culture. Well, we, it’d take you a couple of years to learn it. And I’m like, well, we don’t have that much time. So I think that’s one thing is not just unique, but distinct. What can you say? So, for example, what can I, you know, I’m the only one that produces a rainmaking podcast and I’ve written books on rainmaking because that’s my lens, that’s distinct in my niche, which I’m filled with, you know, very, very successful legal recruiters.
[00:23:29] Scott Love: That I have a lot of respect for, you got to find something that’s distinct about you. And I also think, you know, you think about Tito’s vodka. What do you say about Tito’s? Oh, it’s gluten free. Well, guess what? Every liquor is, but they said it, they kind of claimed it kind of like mad men in the episode where they have lucky stripe, you know, Oh, they’re toasted.
[00:23:47] Scott Love: Well, everybody’s toasted. No, everybody’s. So I think there’s a little bit of gamemanship you can play with that, but if you’re dealing with sophisticated people, you need to really find not just uniqueness, but distinction. And if you, if you don’t have it, you can build it through thought leadership. And if you don’t know how to do that, talk to Steve Fredson.
[00:24:08] Steve Fretzin: There we go. Yeah, I do work with lawyers pretty regularly on, and just understanding their law firm and their practice at such a level where it’s like, hey, I’m You know, you’re doing like a lot of different things and how’s that going? And should we, you know, what do you enjoy and where’s the, you know, we just go through the list that we just went through and usually we find something and I don’t say, well, then let’s do that today.
[00:24:27] Steve Fretzin: It’s normally let’s work on that and let’s build clients based on that and brand based on that, and then over the next year or two, if you want to flip a switch, you can. So that way they’re not feeling like they’re being pushed into something. It’s really their decision ultimately anyway, but it’s happening over a period of time with that evidence and proof and things that lawyers know other words that they love.
[00:24:49] Scott Love: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. I think that’s great advice.
[00:24:51] Steve Fretzin: Any final thoughts about, let’s say there’s a lawyer who’s currently doing too many things and in too many areas and they’re not getting well known. Anything you’d recommend on a marketing, branding, decision making level that would help them?
[00:25:04] Scott Love: I would say, find out why people benefit from you and ask your clients that, because why you think they benefit from you and what they think might be two different things.
[00:25:18] Scott Love: And it doesn’t matter what you think about yourself, it matters what does everybody else think about you. That would be one thing I’d say. And then also look for a template, find somebody that’s done what you’ve done and follow that. Don’t be afraid to make mistakes. Not big mistakes, but little ones.
[00:25:35] Scott Love: And let the data tell you where to go. One of the things I did, Steve, in my, so after I made this change a few months ago, I went through data on the American lawyer, Top 100 and 200 firms, and I looked at all those firms that hired corporate attorneys in the last three years, and all those firms that lost corporate attorneys.
[00:25:52] Scott Love: And I created a metric. I had the number of attorneys they’ve hired in three years, divided by the number of attorneys that they’ve lost. And I called it Smash Fact. If you’re a golfer, you know that’s a golf metric. Speed of the ball divided by the speed of the club head. It shows how efficient the club is.
[00:26:05] Scott Love: You are transferring energy from the club head to the ball and some firms, their metric was really, really low and not everybody needed my particular style of recruiting. They just didn’t need it because, you know, and so I found those firms that had a real good reason to hire me based on my niched expertise in my niched area and also in my way of doing business.
[00:26:29] Scott Love: And so I think when you understand that and you go deep, it’s not just what you do, it’s how you do it. It’s your network. It’s your story. That’s not going to be a fit for everybody. If there’s any data that you can use that can lead you to those people, well, the data is going to support the argument of why they should work with you.
[00:26:49] Steve Fretzin: I’ve got a lawyer who I think I’m going to work with pretty soon. She’s just passing the bar. I mean, we’re talking about very early, but she doesn’t want to work for anybody else. She just wants to do her own thing and she’s going to be great. But she was thinking about like, what should I focus on? What should I, you know, she’s already thinking about like what area of practice to go into, because she has to make that decision.
[00:27:09] Steve Fretzin: And I think I was overwhelming her a bit. I sent her to a lot of different lawyers in different areas that had offered as a favor to me to talk with her. And over time, she’s like, please stop. Like it’s too much information to many people, but I think it was helpful for her. To, to understand, okay, there’s business in this area.
[00:27:27] Steve Fretzin: This is what it’s like. This is how you can make money. I mean, if you enjoy, if you don’t, maybe you don’t know if you’re going to enjoy it, but if you know that there’s need and you know, there’s money there and it’s not completely overcrowded and you’re just starting out, like that’s a pretty good direction to start.
[00:27:40] Steve Fretzin: That’s great. I think that’s good advice. Absolutely. Okay. All right. I’m on the right track. Hey, Scott, let’s roll into your game changing book. And you already mentioned one, the 10 X, but let’s move to another one called pitch anything. I’m not a fan of that word pitch, but I want to still learn about this book.
[00:27:55] Scott Love: Right. I think that is a common word in certain industries. I think in the investment industry, you’re going to make a pitch for funding, right? And so that’s where Aurum comes from. And when I listened to the audio book before I read the book, he narrates it. And I love books where the author narrates it himself or herself, right?
[00:28:16] Scott Love: I love hearing their voice and the way he talked and the way he explained. For example, there’s two different frames, and the dominant frame will overcome and win over the other frame when you’re in some sort of conversation, like a negotiation. Just giving kind of a kinesthetic model to look at, I read his book also after listening to it, and I think I’m probably going to read it again, and I found, here’s a life hack, if you really want to learn something, Get the audio book and the physical book, read them at the same time.
[00:28:45] Scott Love: That’s what I did with 10X is easier than 2X. You really want to learn something. So I think, I think that book has a lot of really good examples for anybody. If you’re not in client development, if you’re in professional services and you are responsible for getting clients, even though you might not have the word sales.
[00:29:01] Scott Love: person next to your title. It’s a good book. Highly recommend. Awesome.
[00:29:06] Steve Fretzin: Well, Scott, such great information. Thank you so much for being on the show. As we wrap up, want to thank our sponsors. The first one is me. It’s the Rainmakers Roundtable. So this is maybe similar to your rainmaking podcast, but it’s getting, you know, eight to 10 top rainmakers in a room every month, having them work through their challenges and learn from each other, confidential environment.
[00:29:26] Steve Fretzin: accountability, all the things, get off your island, be a part of a team that cares about you and wants to see you be successful. So if you’re interested in that and you want to audit one of our meetings, let me know. Just email me at steve at Fretzin. com, or you can DM me. And then of course, rankings. io marketing geniuses websites, SEO, pay per click.
[00:29:46] Steve Fretzin: They’re going to get you the leads. Of course, shout out to our friends at LawHer Podcast. Amazing show. Scott, if people want to reach out to you, they want to move, they want to hire you, they want to talk to you, what’s the best and promote your podcast too. I want to make sure you get that out there.
[00:29:59] Scott Love: Right. And let me tell you that first. It’s called the Rain Making Podcast and you can find it at therainmakingpodcast. com or just Google it. It’s a top ranked show, a top 2 percent show. Over 200 episodes, not quite 400, Steve. Well, you’re, you’re working your way. I am. And I started that four years ago because I don’t want to have an email newsletter that I send to partners.
[00:30:20] Scott Love: Because if I put them on an email newsletter, they would say, take me off your list. You spam, you scamming scum, and you spamming scum. And that’s just what they would say. So I want to give them something, which is content. I dangle that shiny lure of information that helps them, whether they want to move or not.
[00:30:36] Scott Love: And so it’s therainmakingpodcast. com. And you can look for Steve’s episodes. There’s two of them on there. And then my legal recruiting website is attorneysearchgroup. com. I’m happy to talk to any attorney, even if you don’t have a book of business, I’ll talk to you. And if I can’t be a recruiter for you, I know a lot of recruiters and I’d be happy to refer you to somebody.
[00:30:54] Steve Fretzin: Yeah, fantastic. Well, thanks so much, man. I appreciate you being a two timer on my show. I’ve done yours twice and it’s a lot of fun to have you. I mean, I think you’re solid on both sides of the mic. It’s Thank you, Steve. That’s great stuff. I appreciate it. You got it, buddy. You got it. And thank you everybody for spending time with Scott and I today on the Be That Lawyer with Fredson podcast, confidence organization.
[00:31:14] Steve Fretzin: Rainmaking expertise all here on the show. Keep tuning in and we will see you soon. Take care and be well.
[00:31:25] Narrator: Thanks for listening to Be That Lawyer. Life changing strategies and resources for growing a successful law practice. Visit Steve’s website Fretzin. com for additional information and to stay up to date on the latest legal business development and marketing trends. For more information and important links about today’s episode, check out today’s show notes.