Sean Klunder: Standing Out with Law Firm Marketing

In this episode, Steve Fretzin and Sean Klunder discuss:

  • Why law firms tend to run behind other types of businesses in marketing.
  • Understanding your SEO strategy.
  • Individual lawyer marketing versus law firm marketing.
  • Alignment and consistency in messaging in all areas of your firm.
  • Watch out for fool’s gold to ensure you’re swimming in the blue ocean.

Key Takeaways:

  • There is a difference between Marketing and marketing. Without a strategy, it is all just random acts of marketing.
  • Sales patterns have changed over the last few years. People are taking themselves 60-70% through the sales cycle online digitally before ever contacting the law firm.
  • Identify your unique differentiator. Use the three pillars to help identify that: what do you do, who do you help, and what makes you different.
  • Be targeted to who you’re disseminating your message. Where are those targets digitally? Are you also there?

“It is really important to have that strategic focus before jumping directly into the tactical execution.” —  Sean Klunder

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Episode References: 

About Sean Klunder: Sean Klunder is a seasoned marketing transformation expert with a particular skill set in digital marketing. He combines his business strategy expertise with marketing transformation and execution to help law firms with explosive growth. Sean has worked with numerous law firms to develop business growth strategies, brand transformations, customized digital marketing strategies, implement the latest digital marketing initiatives, automate marketing using integrated technologies, and build reporting systems to illustrate ROI.

Prior to his fractional CMO role, Sean was Senior Vice President of Marketing and Product Management at Korn Ferry International. He was also Vice President of Marketing and Digital Development at World Book (a Berkshire Hathaway company), and Divisional Vice President at ETA/Cuisenaire. For 9 years Sean was also an Adjunct Professor of Digital Marketing at the Lake Forest Graduate School of Management where he developed his own curriculum and trained MBA candidates on strategically growing businesses through modernized digital marketing.

Because of Sean’s successes in helping law firms develop and implement customized marketing strategies, he developed a proven approach to help law firms strategically grow.

Connect with Sean Klunder:  


Email: [email protected]



Connect with Steve Fretzin:

LinkedIn: Steve Fretzin

Twitter: @stevefretzin

Instagram: @fretzinsteve

Facebook: Fretzin, Inc.


Email: [email protected]

Book: Legal Business Development Isn’t Rocket Science and more!

YouTube: Steve Fretzin

Call Steve directly at 847-602-6911

Show notes by Podcastologist Chelsea Taylor-Sturkie

Audio production by Turnkey Podcast Productions. You’re the expert. Your podcast will prove it.


[00:00:00] Steve Fretzin: Hey everyone, if you’re already a strong business developer or rainmaking managing partner, here’s the chance to step off your proverbial island and audit one of our exclusive Rainmaker Roundtable groups in the month of April. These groups consist solely of top level lawyers who believe in continuous learning and improvement.

[00:00:17] Steve Fretzin: Together, these influential lawyers function as a collaborative team offering mutual support and fresh perspectives in a confidential setting. Please email me directly at steve at Fretzin. com to schedule a quick chat before inviting you to meet one of my teams. That’s it for now, everybody. Enjoy the show.

[00:00:37] Narrator: You’re listening to Be That Lawyer, life changing strategies and resources for growing a successful law practice. Each episode, your host, author and lawyer coach, Steve Fretzin, will take a deeper dive into helping you grow your law practice. Well,

[00:00:59] Steve Fretzin: hey everybody, welcome back to another exciting episode of Be That Lawyer.

[00:01:03] Steve Fretzin: The show that you know is all about helping you to grow your law practice, be your best self, live your best life, no regrets, uh, and, and just have some fun along the way. I think that’s really the key. See ya. Um, I can already tell you from, from, from just the preamble with Sean, we’re going to have some fun today.

[00:01:21] Steve Fretzin: So if you’re interested in a boring, nothing to learn podcast, you’re in the wrong place. If you’re interested in having some fun and laughs and also learning some great stuff, then you’re in the right place. So, Sean, what’s happening, man? Oh, great, Steve. I’m glad to be here. Thank you very much for inviting me on.

[00:01:37] Steve Fretzin: Yeah, well, you didn’t give me much of a choice. You had that gun in my head. So, you know, got to do what I got to do. That’s how it works in marketing. We force people to do things, right? That’s it. Sometimes you got to force the matter. In this case, you forced me to do a podcast with you. But okay, I guess, I guess that’s all right.

[00:01:51] Steve Fretzin: No, I’m obviously teasing. We’re, we’re just going to have some fun today, as I said. And it starts with the quote of the show. And if I had a nickel for every time I’ve said this quote, heard this quote, reference this quote, I’d have about 1250. Uh, and it is a Peter Drucker. You can’t manage what you can’t measure.

[00:02:09] Steve Fretzin: Um, and. Talk to us about that and why that’s kind of like a great lead into our chat today.

[00:02:16] Sean Klunder: Yeah. Thanks. Um, you know, I started teaching digital marketing at a, uh, a local graduate school in the Chicago area and digital marketing is all about tracking, right? It’s all about data. And I start my course, um, with that quote from Peter Drucker.

[00:02:34] Sean Klunder: And what’s critical is, is To be able to gather the data necessary in order to evaluate performance and also calculate ROI. But most importantly is what does the data mean and how do we use that data to shift practices, right? To constantly evolve marketing in order to make it much more efficient for law firms and any business for that matter.

[00:03:01] Sean Klunder: But if you can’t manage it, right, you can’t track it, you can’t effectively manage it. So we’re always looking for ways, even in traditional marketing, how do we gather data against those efforts to show that that investment is really paying off for us?

[00:03:16] Steve Fretzin: So you got the, the money that you’re putting into marketing, what’s the return on investment?

[00:03:20] Steve Fretzin: How is that paying out key performance indicators? You’ve got business development, right? So I’m helping people on that side. Understand how many meetings they need to have of different sorts, what kind of conversions they need on those meetings to deals to get referrals, et cetera, et cetera. We’ve got numbers around your, you know, what you’re spending, what you’re bringing in cost per lawyer, you know, revenue per lawyer.

[00:03:45] Steve Fretzin: So there’s all these things that we got to measure. And if we don’t, then we’re not able to manage it. And that’s the whole point.

[00:03:51] Sean Klunder: Yeah, to your point, Steve, I mean, well, you mentioned in the sales process, what are the steps from beginning to end? And in marketing, we call that a marketing funnel. So what are all of the steps that we want to engage prospects in, in order to turn you into, first point of contact to a, uh, assigned matter, for example.

[00:04:12] Sean Klunder: And within each of those steps, we really need the data, the right data to tell us what’s really working in each step of the funnel to move them from A, B, C, D, all the way to a closed matter.

[00:04:26] Steve Fretzin: Right on, right on. So this is, this is, again, a lot of the stuff that is not taught in law school, is not taught at the law firm level.

[00:04:32] Steve Fretzin: Lawyers going out on their own or joining firms and kind of getting thrown into, you know, the marketing, the management, the operations, all these different sides, the BD side. And, you know, they know how to bill hours and they know how to practice the law. And so this is why this show exists. It’s to give all the different elements of what it takes to be, become a great entrepreneur, to be a great, you know, successful rainmaker or law firm owner and, and to thrive.

[00:04:56] Steve Fretzin: So, um, by the way, everybody, you’re listening to Sean Klunder and my guest today, law firm, fractional CMOs. And this is not, um, now what you’ve always done. So give us a little bit of, of kind of how you morphed into this, into this business and, uh, leading into that, be that lawyer tipping point.

[00:05:14] Sean Klunder: Yeah, great question.

[00:05:16] Sean Klunder: So I have been doing the fractional CMO thing now for about 10 years. And prior to that, I had, um, um, executive level position. So senior vice president of marketing and product management at Corn Fury International, which is, you know, a bill, a billion dollar a year publicly traded, um, um, services firm. Uh, prior to that, I was vice president of marketing and, uh, digital development at, at world book.

[00:05:45] Sean Klunder: And I decided to get into the fractional role because I really wanted to focus on what did I learn from big corporate marketing and how could I apply that to small mid sized businesses. And an interesting thing happened is I started working with law firms about four to five years ago. And then I attended the legal marketing association national meeting in Las Vegas a number of years ago.

[00:06:11] Sean Klunder: And I realized that law firms are typically much farther behind many other type of business in embracing marketing. And the frustrations were very, very big in terms of we’re doing marketing. I don’t know if we’re doing the right things. We’re engaging in random acts of marketing. I’m spending a lot of money.

[00:06:29] Sean Klunder: I’m not sure what to do. So there was this mismatch between you want to grow and you automatically go to the execution phase without really focusing first and foremost on what is your business growth strategy and then what is a good aligned marketing strategy that’s going to drive the right. Tactical execution.

[00:06:52] Sean Klunder: So that’s where this big M marketing versus little M marketing really comes into play because without a strategy, it’s just random acts of marketing.

[00:07:02] Steve Fretzin: Well, but I think what’s happening is the lawyers are meeting all of the different agencies and service providers. They’re selling the soup of the day.

[00:07:10] Steve Fretzin: It’s SEO. That’s what you need. It’s, you need to start a podcast. You need, it’s like whatever they’re making money and selling is, is that’s the, you know, everybody’s, uh, you know, you know, if you have a hammer, all you see is nails. And so that’s, that’s what I think is happening. And so there’s not enough strategy and growth and marketing and how they’re working in the consulting side of it.

[00:07:31] Steve Fretzin: There’s more of the execution side of it, which I think what you’re saying, but it’s, that’s a long way of going around to say that’s, that’s super frustrating for a lot of attorneys because they want everything aligned. They’re trusting in these agencies who I think are not maybe doing a great service in that direction.

[00:07:47] Sean Klunder: Yeah. And you know, um, what I always like to say to law firms is that what you’re doing is you’re finding a channel that you want to engage in SEO, for example, organic search. And you’re turning that over to a bunch of millennials with no strategic focus, but the question I always ask is, well, what is your SEO strategy?

[00:08:06] Sean Klunder: Is it very much intent SEO? Is it informational SEO? Is it a combination of both? Why? What is the kind of content that we want to engage in? Uh, that we want to rank on who is your competition? Right? How, how challenging is it going to rank for certain terms and rather than the agencies managing the law firm?

[00:08:27] Sean Klunder: What we like to say is us fractional CMOs. And the strategy manages the agency, right? And we work with a lot of agencies. We’ve got a black book of our, of our, our most successful agency partners that we’ve worked with. But you’re exactly right, Steve. It’s really important to have that strategic focus before jumping directly into the tactical execution.

[00:08:50] Steve Fretzin: Yeah, that’s it. That’s it. And so where do you feel most law firms, and I don’t know how big we want to go with this, you know, all the way up to the, to the biggest, or do we want to stay small and mid market? But where do you think they’re broken as it relates to their teams? Like you’re coming in as a fractional CMO, many of these mid market and small law firms have internal marketing people.

[00:09:12] Steve Fretzin: They have Um, what they would consider to be strategists, that’s kind of, you know, or they have, they have an entire department of marketing. How are you different and, and, and how is that broken?

[00:09:23] Sean Klunder: Yeah. Good question. So, you know, we’ve done, um, a lot of really good work with, uh, really large law firms. And I don’t know if this is going to resonate for any of you listeners out there who are with large law firms, they have marketing functions, but the biggest frustration that I hear is that their marketing function is not really focused on lead generation.

[00:09:44] Sean Klunder: They’re focused on a lot of other areas of marketing, right, in terms of helping partners do business development out there. But the important thing to note is that sales patterns have changed a lot over the last 5, 10, 15, 20 years, where people are taking themselves, you know, 60, 70 percent through the sales cycle online digitally before they ever decide that they’re going to pick up the phone and contact an attorney.

[00:10:13] Sean Klunder: And the second thing I’ll mention is, is that instead of the one to one strategy, which is a sales, you know, focus out there trying to drum up business through referrals. Marketing needs to engage in the one to many strategy, cast a wide net out there, right? In terms of very, very top of funnel marketing.

[00:10:34] Sean Klunder: So we’re starting to, to, to really see over the last five years. Even large law firms saying, you know, we’re really frustrated. We’ve got 15, 20, sometimes 25 people in our marketing department, but they’re not producing the, the level of leads that we need to really, you know, grow this law firm in the way that we need to.

[00:10:55] Sean Klunder: And we don’t know how many leads we should be generating, right? What, what is the right approach and what’s the right amount of leads? So, um, But the fact is, is that market dynamics have changed, that marketing really is now part of the sales function. It’s, it’s hand in hand with business development. And we work really closely to make sure that there’s really strong alignment of the marketing team and the marketing function to the business developments, whether it’s the attorneys in the law firms who are speaking to prospects or the intake function at a law firm who’s doing initial screening of prospects.

[00:11:33] Steve Fretzin: And I’m, I’m a huge proponent of, of marketing and business development, working hand in hand. And many of the attorneys that I engage with, they, They don’t have massive budgets, right? They’re not able to spend five and 10, 000 a month or more on marketing. And I’m, I’m obviously, you know, I’m not trying to say every solution is a business development solution.

[00:11:53] Steve Fretzin: It’s not. But for individual attorneys, um, you know, that’s the direction I generally point them as, hey, can you, can you develop, you know, the relationships that you have into business. And the marketing, you know, hey, I’m just trying to get him to post, you know, a couple of times a week on social things like that.

[00:12:12] Steve Fretzin: And so I want to talk a little bit about the difference between individual lawyer marketing and law for marketing. How are they different and how do they support each other or take away from each other? Yeah, good,

[00:12:23] Sean Klunder: good question. So, the difference in my mind is, uh, marketing for individual attorneys and lawyers It’s really about understanding what your unique skill set is and your, your sort of key differentiator.

[00:12:37] Sean Klunder: What value can you bring to yourself that’s better and different than any other type of lawyer out there? And then I’m going to, I’m going to say the word easy. I don’t like using the word easy, but then it’s just a matter of, well, how do we make sure you become the foremost expert? In your type of law.

[00:12:54] Sean Klunder: Now, it’s somewhat similar from a law firm perspective, right, where we have to identify what other practice areas that you really want to be well known for. If, for example, you are a B2B law firm, is there an account based marketing approach that we can engage in that’s really going to target. Very, very specific, you know, businesses that we want to go after.

[00:13:17] Sean Klunder: Um, or if you’re, let’s just say your personal injury, for example, um, how do we use a very, very disruptive digital marketing approach that is that is going to position your law firm differently and bring the kind of, um, you know, prospects into your firm. But if you’re an individual lawyer, what we really want to first and foremost focus on is, boy, what really makes you different than any other lawyer out there in your very specific space?

[00:13:48] Sean Klunder: Why would somebody choose to work with you?

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[00:15:43] Steve Fretzin: Let’s unwrap that a little bit more. I’ve got attorneys. We actually have, I teach a class every Tuesday morning and we talked today about infomercials and part of what I like to have people do in an infomercial is to say, you know, what makes me unique is.

[00:15:57] Steve Fretzin: And so I’m trying to pull out of each attorney what you’re talking about. Do you have a, you could teach me maybe, I mean, what’s, what’s your kind of process to meet an attorney and, and identify what is a usable differentiator, a usable, or maybe just give an example of, of one, um, but, but what’s your process and what would be an example?

[00:16:18] Sean Klunder: Yeah. So we engage in a process that we like to call the brand house. Okay. And, um, there, there are really three different pillars of the brand house that we really try to pop in. No. It’s not a simple exercise. It takes us some digging and some research to really get it right in several drafts, right? And in its easiest form, it’s what do you do?

[00:16:43] Sean Klunder: Who do you help? And what makes you different? Okay, and in each individual pillar, right, we want to identify what are those pain points that exist out there. For the type of law that you practice, what are the major frustrations that you help to solve for? That’s the broad question we’re trying to answer.

[00:17:04] Sean Klunder: Then on the far right hand side of that brand house is, well, what makes you unique and different? And then this is the challenging part about this exercise, because we want to make sure that we are identifying key differentiators. That are not easily replicable by other lawyers or other law firms, right?

[00:17:23] Sean Klunder: So it’s going to be really difficult for somebody else to say, well, I’ll just put that on my, my website or my home page of my, my bio page of the website. The second step in this process is, well, let’s look at competitors. Who else is doing what you say you do? And what are they saying about themselves?

[00:17:42] Sean Klunder: Once we carved out that really unique brand house key differentiator about you. Now, it becomes a matter of what’s the right messaging, what’s the right content, what’s the right channels to disseminate that with. But the brand house is a very specific type of exercise that we engage in to ensure once we jump all the way to the tactical execution, that the messaging is going to make a difference, right?

[00:18:10] Sean Klunder: It’s not just a look in the mirror and you sound and look like the same as every other attorney out there, right? We’re trying to really craft. A differentiated positioning for you in the marketplace.

[00:18:22] Steve Fretzin: Yeah. The two that I love that and the two different, the two, uh, litmus tests that I, that I try to use.

[00:18:27] Steve Fretzin: Number one is, is what you’re saying something no one else is saying. So to your point, you know, what can you, what are your competitors saying? What can you say? And is it different? If I say I’m a big firm attorney with small firm rates, okay. That was great 15 years ago, but now there’s a million people saying that.

[00:18:45] Steve Fretzin: So it’s not so unique anymore. The second litmus test that I put people through is who cares. So I, the fact that I am, that I only work with individual attorneys and I have 16 years of experience doing that. Okay. So a, do lawyers care that I, you know, well, the first of all, do, am I the only one saying that?

[00:19:05] Steve Fretzin: Well, I might be, I’m not the only one saying I help lawyers. A lot of people focus with that much experience. Maybe there’s not that many. And then the second part is, do lawyers care that I’m a specialist in working with lawyers a hundred percent? Do You know, versus it being, I’m a generalist, I work with sales teams, and I work with lawyers too.

[00:19:21] Steve Fretzin: They don’t really want that. That’s, that’s one of the reasons I transitioned away from being a generalist. So I think those, those libis tests, but could you have an example of someone that you met with where. There wasn’t a differentiator. You worked with them to uncover one. And what would that be? Get a line sharing.

[00:19:36] Sean Klunder: Yeah, I’ll give you, I’ll give you the most recent example. Okay. And this was a very, very small practice of personal injury and wrongful death. Okay. Now, the reason why I’m going to use that example, and it might, it might not be super relevant to the type of law that your listeners are practicing, but the approach will, will align well to what we’re talking about.

[00:19:59] Sean Klunder: As you can imagine, driving down a highway and you’re seeing a million billboards for personal injury lawyers. Every single one of them looks the same. One of them is holding a hammer, right? I fight for you. No fee until, until, uh, you know, we win. All the messaging is the same. Yeah. So me and the team went to work on tons of research on the market itself, who are all of your competitors, and then really had.

[00:20:27] Sean Klunder: Very, very detailed conversations with the attorney, the face of the law firm, the small law firm to determine that there is a level of compassion that you have. That nobody else really has that you care far beyond, um, winning the case. Right? Yeah. To get them getting the money. It’s more than money.

[00:20:48] Steve Fretzin: Yeah,

[00:20:48] Sean Klunder: exactly.

[00:20:49] Sean Klunder: Right. You know, so for example, um, they recently just settled a very large case for somebody who, um, Traumatic brain injury. And they went far beyond the resolution of the case to help this person with their money. How are they going to financially manage it? They, they, um, uh, you know, align that person with a financial planner to make sure that they were well taken care of for the rest of this.

[00:21:12] Sean Klunder: So they weren’t going to go out and spend a million dollars after receiving their check on a Ferrari, for example. So we had to take that story and those messages and Of really caring of helping you get back on your feet, helping you to get back to your family and caring beyond the case. And then we tested it, right?

[00:21:31] Sean Klunder: Let’s go out there and talk to some people that you’ve done work with to see if that really resonates. Then from there, it was every marketing and advertising message. We have to focus on it, right? We have to actually have. Consistent. Consistent. Consistent messaging, right? And again, personal injury is an example, but that’s an example of any, regardless of the type of practice that you’re, you’re an attorney for, that’s exactly what we’re looking for, right?

[00:21:59] Sean Klunder: How do we, and then how does that voice come out in all of the marketing messages? Um, so that’s a, that’s an example, something very, very recent over the past, probably three to four weeks that we’ve done with an attorney.

[00:22:11] Steve Fretzin: Very cool. Very cool. I love that. And The, the, the question is. You know, strategically, it’s one thing to come up with an idea of caring or an idea of responsiveness or an idea of what could differential could be.

[00:22:25] Steve Fretzin: How you then leverage that in your email, in your website, in your everything that you’re doing, your billboards, whatever, that takes some, that takes some strategic thinking and I just don’t, I mean, I, I, I’m working with an agency and they’re phenomenal and I think they, they definitely are strategy down.

[00:22:43] Steve Fretzin: One of our sponsors, um, green cardigan marketing. But mostly what I’m seeing out there is a lot of, of, um, non strategic, you know, just deliverables.

[00:22:54] Sean Klunder: Yeah. I call that spray and pray approach to marketing, right?

[00:22:58] Steve Fretzin: Yeah.

[00:22:58] Sean Klunder: We’re not going to focus on the strategy behind the messaging or the why, or the proof points behind it.

[00:23:04] Sean Klunder: Okay. Yeah. Um, we’re just going to, just going to put your firm name, your attorney name out there as much as possible for the hope that we’ll get some leads and some prospecting in, right? But that strategy upfront is so important to make sure. Let’s face it, Steve. I mean, you, you know, this, uh, better than anybody.

[00:23:23] Sean Klunder: We are inundated with marketing messages every single day inundated. How are you going to be the one that somebody chooses to engage in? Yeah. Right? That’s ultimately the question that we have to answer here is how do we get that one person who sees 10, 20 different similar messaging, but they’re going to choose you.

[00:23:46] Sean Klunder: Right. They’re going to choose you. And that’s to simplify, to boil it down. That’s the strategic question that we really want it to answer in law firm strategy marketing.

[00:23:57] Steve Fretzin: Well, the other, and the other piece of it is let’s say the law firm and let’s, let’s just make up a number and say there’s 20 attorneys.

[00:24:03] Steve Fretzin: All right. The law firm comes up with a direction, strategic direction, differentiator. They’ve got it sort of figured out. How do they communicate with the attorneys? Might happen is you’ve got this hub that’s got a direction and then you’ve got 20 individuals that are all looking out for either themselves.

[00:24:18] Steve Fretzin: They’re not on board with the direction. They’re not, there’s that. You know, it’s it’s that’s that. Is that a concern for, you know, the owner of that firm that everyone’s kind of speaking their own language?

[00:24:29] Sean Klunder: It is a concern, right? Because I think, um, what what ends up happening is we lose the consistency of messaging, right?

[00:24:37] Sean Klunder: If there’s not alignment. So part of the role of a CMO. Is to to build that consensus and to build that alignment right to make sure that we’ve got consistency. And that goes beyond market, right? And you actually kind of alluded to this at, at, at the top of our discussion. There’s the marketing messaging, but then there’s also the sales messaging, right?

[00:24:58] Sean Klunder: So, we in marketing have to work specifically closely with the sales function of those attorneys to make sure. What you’re communicating during the sales process is, is consistent with. The marketing communications. Sometimes there’s pushback, right? We’re always going to run into that, but it’s important that the owner of the law firm, the managing partner of the law firm, um, really helps to drive that through the law firm to ensure that we’ve got broad consistency of messaging, both through the marketing process and the sales process,

[00:25:34] Steve Fretzin: let’s wrap up with a couple of tips for individual lawyers who.

[00:25:38] Steve Fretzin: You know, they’re not maybe getting supported by the firm, they’re it’s eat what you kill, and they’ve got to focus on themselves because the firm is a slow moving, you know, engine. What are a couple of tips that you recommend for lawyers to try to get their brand and their message out there, given that they, maybe they have a direction or strategy that, you know, they came up with?

[00:26:00] Steve Fretzin: Um,

[00:26:01] Sean Klunder: number one is be very targeted. Right. Be extremely targeted in who you want to disseminate your message to. Number two, make sure you have a good clear message in terms of answering this. So what, and you said this before, Steve, so you do the X, Y, and Z as a lawyer, you focus on this type of law, but so what, right, what difference can you make?

[00:26:25] Sean Klunder: And how can you make that, that, um, um, a better difference than any other kind of attorney out there? And the 3rd is be really selective about the channels that you choose. Okay, and number 4, finally, be digital. Have a digital mindset, right? Look at ways that you could disseminate your message through digital channels, whether it’s social, whether it’s SEO, to your point, your podcast, for example.

[00:26:52] Sean Klunder: Are there informational articles that you could develop out there and be very intentional About the digital strategy that you employ and look at that digital strategy as your top of funnel lead generation engine, but starting at step one, be differentiated, answer the, so what, and then focus on your top of funnel strategy, but be very digital intentional about how you’re going to disseminate your messaging.

[00:27:18] Steve Fretzin: The thing that you said that resonated with me more than than everything was the targets. I think there’s a lack of. understanding with attorneys on who their targets are. So just as an example, an estate planning attorney, well, anybody can refer me. I’m an estate planning attorney. Everybody needs an estate plan.

[00:27:35] Steve Fretzin: Yes. However, there are certain types of lawyers and certain types of consultants and professionals that are more likely than others to refer CPA, financial advisor. That could be, um, like you mentioned, a personal injury, right? They’ve got to now protect those assets. And make sure that the, you know, they’re, they’re, you know, the way that money is funneled down to the kids and all that happens.

[00:28:00] Steve Fretzin: So I think there’s, they’re just like spray and pray could be 1 way to look at it. The other would be. They’re just out networking thinking that, you know, everybody anybody they meet is going to be someone they can work with. Um, when that may, it may be. Yes, it’s true, but, but maybe not as target as it could be.

[00:28:16] Sean Klunder: Yeah. You know, I’ll give a really good example. Okay. This is an estate planning and probate litigation law firm that we worked with as a fractional CMO for a couple of years. And, um, we went to work to determine where are people, your best prospects, your best targets, where are they digitally in terms of how they’re engaging and for all you estate planning and probate attorneys out there, the realization that we came to after doing all of our research was.

[00:28:49] Sean Klunder: They’re not necessarily first and foremost out there searching for an attorney. They’re searching for answers to questions about their situation, right? Yeah. So we decided to, uh, generate a content strategy that was all around answering key questions, right? And focusing on your individual expertise in the area of estate planning and probate.

[00:29:14] Sean Klunder: And Lee, once we did that, and once we, we put that out there for people to find and to consume leads went from on average, about 60 per month up to about 600 per month. But the realization was that people were seeking answers to questions before they determined they needed legal representation. So we wanted this, this individual, this small firm to become, and I’m going to use this term.

[00:29:40] Sean Klunder: The web MD of estate planning in probate, right? There you go. I like that. You’re going to become the encyclopedia Or information about estate planning and probate and it worked like a charm, right? So much so that the, the attorney said I would have never been able to generate this level of leads without this strategy.

[00:30:00] Sean Klunder: So it works, right? Engage with content in a digital fashion.

[00:30:05] Steve Fretzin: I love it. I absolutely love it. Hey, Sean, as we wrap up, let’s move to your game changing book. Now this is one for me. Going back probably 20 years called blue ocean strategy. I’ve got some, some frozen cons on this book, but I want to hear your take on why it’s your game changing book.

[00:30:21] Sean Klunder: Yeah. So, um, you know, like most of us, we read a lot of business books and the reason why I like blue ocean strategy is because it really focuses on that first, most important aspect, growing a business, right. And that’s finding a unique lane that is not overly competitive, or if it is competitive. That you’ve found a niche in that one marketplace that makes you unmatched than anybody else, right?

[00:30:49] Sean Klunder: Let’s face it, you know, attorney, lawyer, law firms, it’s a very crowded space. And it’s very applicable to find that one unique niche, that one unique area. Once you have that, once we’ve identified that as part of your growth strategy, Then the rest of the marketing strategy actually becomes fairly easy to engage in because now we know how we’re going to communicate you.

[00:31:16] Sean Klunder: But because of that. It’s a timeless book, Steve. It’s a timeless book, right? That’s the reason why I

[00:31:22] Steve Fretzin: love it. So I love it too. And the sea is bloodied red with competition go where the blue ocean is, right? That’s the theme. My problem and this is a personal gripe I have with books that they provide a lot of research and a lot of background and all this stuff, but ultimately the book is good for what I just said.

[00:31:42] Steve Fretzin: The book, it’s a theme that if you just understand that one sentence it’s timeless. You can, you know, make make things happen. So it’s not from my take. And again, I maybe have to reread. It wasn’t a lot of tactical, actionable things that you can do. It was really of a theory of go where the blue ocean is, which I, which again, I’m doing it.

[00:32:01] Steve Fretzin: You’re doing it. We love it. But again, sometimes you read a whole book and you go, Oh, okay. I could have just read that sentence anyway. Yeah, that’s a lot of

[00:32:09] Sean Klunder: theory, right? But then the question is, How do you, how do you provide the practical application of it? I think that’s what you’re saying.

[00:32:15] Steve Fretzin: Well, right, and so that’s where it gets tricky.

[00:32:17] Steve Fretzin: It’s like, they’re leading you to that blue ocean water, but then how do you actually, like, you’re giving actionable examples of how you flip switches to get Differentiators created or to get a digital strategy out. And I just didn’t feel like they did that really well in that book. But again, I could be, I could may have to reread it.

[00:32:35] Steve Fretzin: So, well,

[00:32:36] Sean Klunder: and I’ll say this in closing, yeah. Be careful, um, about what I call fool’s gold. You may think you’ve carved out a differentiated position, but maybe you have not, right? Full scope. Yeah. And I think you’re right. You know, that book, it’s all about the execution. There’s a process that, that’s important to engage in to ensure that you are truly swimming in the blue ocean.

[00:32:59] Steve Fretzin: There we go. All right. And that’s a great, a great wrap up. I also want to, of course, thank our wonderful sponsors, of course, Get Staffed Up, Lawmatics, and Green Cardigan Marketing. And Sean, if people want to get in touch with you, learn more about Law Firm Fractional CMOs, what’s the best way for them to reach you?

[00:33:15] Sean Klunder: Yeah, you could visit our website, which is www. lawfirm cmo. com, um, you could also email us. You could email me directly if you have questions, I’m, I’m happy to provide just some friendly advice. Thanks. And that’s S Klunder, which is S K L U N D E R at lawfirm

[00:33:37] Steve Fretzin: hyphen C M O dot com. Fantastic. Well, thanks for coming on and sharing your wisdom.

[00:33:42] Steve Fretzin: And, you know, again, you know, what I try to do in this show is to, is to get information and examples and things that people can listen to and then either take action or understand they need professional help, which is fine too. But, uh, just thanks for, for coming on and, uh, collaborating. And I have the feeling you and I have more to more to talk about once we, uh, once we click the stop record button.

[00:34:03] Sean Klunder: Sounds good, Steve. I really appreciate you, you inviting me on as a guest, even though you said I forced you at the beginning and I’m looking forward to more conversation about strategic marketing.

[00:34:14] Steve Fretzin: Yes. More forced, uh, forced abuse on Steve Brettson here from, from my friend, Sean. No, no, it’s, it’s all good, my friend.

[00:34:20] Steve Fretzin: Um, and thank you everybody for spending time again on the Be That Lawyer podcast. If you’re a fan, don’t be shy about giving us a nice review or liking us, telling other lawyers about it. We want to build our audience to help lawyers to be that lawyer. Someone who’s confident, organized, and a skilled rainmaker.

[00:34:36] Steve Fretzin: Take care, everybody. Be safe. Be well. We’ll talk again soon.

[00:34:43] Narrator: Thanks for listening to Be That Lawyer. Life changing strategies and resources for growing a successful law practice. Visit Steve’s website, Fretzin. com, for additional information. And to stay up to date on the latest legal business development and marketing. For more information and important links about today’s episode, check out today’s show notes.