Stacey Brown Randall: Relationship Based Referrals Without Asking

In this episode, Steve Fretzin and Stacey Brown Randall discuss:

  • Generating referrals without asking, without manipulation, without compensation, without networking to know a ton of people, and without just waiting and hoping that they’ll happen.
  • Showing up and being seen as the expert.
  • The power behind words and using them for good.
  • Looking at the data of where your referrals came from (not just where you think they may have come from).

Key Takeaways:

  • There are a lot of strategies you can learn when it comes to referrals. You have to figure out what works best for you, for your firm, for your brand, and how you want to show up.
  • A referral source is any human that refers you, whether or not they are clients.
  • Maintaining relationships (of all kinds) are the key to referrals. There is a framework to those relationships that will strengthen those relationships and referrals.
  • Thank by name – write a thank you note every time you are referred for specifically who was referred to you (even if they don’t become a client).

“If you can actually just pay attention to the psychology and reverse engineer or look a little differently to how referrals actually come to be, we don’t have as much control over them as we think. But there are things we do control.” —  Stacey Brown Randall

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Show notes by Podcastologist Chelsea Taylor-Sturkie

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Narrator, Stacey Brown Randall, Steve Fretzin, Jordan Ostroff


Stacey Brown Randall  [00:00]

It’s the idea that if you can actually just pay attention to the psychology and kind of like reverse engineer or look a little differently to how referrals actually come to be. We don’t have as much control over them as we think. But there are things we do control.


Narrator  [00:20]

You’re listening to be that lawyer, life changing strategies and resources for growing a successful law practice. Each episode, your host, author and lawyer coach, Steve Fretzin, will take a deeper dive helping you grow your law practice in less time with greater results. Now, here’s your host, Steve Fretzin.


Steve Fretzin  [00:42]

Hey, everybody, welcome to be that lawyer. I hope you’re having a fabulous day today. I’ve got a really busy day, but I’m doing podcasts. And so when I’m doing podcasts, it’s not so busy. It’s more like fun. It’s like almost like off our fun time that I get to have during my work day. Right? So it’s all good. And as you guys know, this show is all about helping you to be that lawyer or someone who’s confident organized in a skilled Rainmaker. If you’re interested in learning that through books, I have now four books out the most recent is legal business development isn’t rocket science. And I think my guest Stacey today will agree that we’re not putting together or launching rocket ships here. But we are trying to give you tips and ideas and ways of making business development more reasonable, more rational and easier to do. And I’m gonna introduce Stacey in a moment, I do want to thank our sponsors legalese, marketing and money, Penny legalese, for being a great partner for marketing and helping law firms all over the country to get their act together and get stuff out social media newsletters, search engine optimization, law, Maddox, they do it all. And of course, money Penny, who is great at doing the live chat on the website, and of course, the the virtual reception, and they do a great job with those two, deliverables. So Stacy was kind enough to give me my first religious quote of the show, and I thank you for that. And that is, faith is being sure of what we hope for an uncertain of what we do not see. So welcome Stacy brown Randall and tell me what that quote means to you.


Stacey Brown Randall  [02:13]

Oh, thank you so much, Steve, for having me on your podcast. I’m excited to be here today and spend some time with you. You know, it’s so interesting. I think life in general, is if you’re I don’t know, not everybody’s like me, and I recognize that. But a lot of people like to be planners, right? I mean, they just like to plan out their life, they like to have their goals. They like to know the direction that they’re headed. And I just think that quote from Hebrews, it’s just so important to remind me of it, sometimes it is like, you take a step, and you don’t really know what you’re going to step onto. But you just have the faith, that it’s going to be what you’re going to what you’re ultimately going to need, maybe not what you want, but what you need. And that’s really important. So I like to have that quote, just to guide me, because the truth is, if I had followed all my own plans, I’m not really quite sure how happy I would be today. So I like the ones that show up and you just gotta have faith in them.


Steve Fretzin  [03:03]

Well, it isn’t it interesting to the way the world changes or things that happen to us. And it’s how we respond and how we react. So whether you’re in a near death situation, you know, survive cancer, you didn’t know that was going to happen, and you’ve got to adapt to it, adjust to it and make the best of it. And, you know, they say that what the last best laid plans, right? Of Mice and Men.


Stacey Brown Randall  [03:26]

So it’s so true. And you know, it’s interesting, this quote, took on even like a bigger meaning. And my husband’s in my life when we actually took custody of our nephew. Now, seven years ago, it’ll be I think, seven years this summer. We took Stephen when he was seven, he’s now 14, he and my other two children are in those dreaded middle school years. So yeah, you can send lots of prayers for me, Steve?


Steve Fretzin  [03:46]

Well, I have a 15 year old so we could have a whole episode about the emotional trauma that we’re dealing with every day. That they do to us. Thank you. So I’m not talking about their emotional, right, your own drama,


Stacey Brown Randall  [03:59]

like what you’re doing to us. But yeah, this point is really important. When you’re, it’s one thing to raise children, I always say that I mean, I’ve got to write two biological children. It’s tough raising two kids, but then to raise a third that is not yours. That just you know, needs extra tender loving care, but also at the same time is just, it’s just different. It’s just, I mean, God bless all the people who adopt and take custody of family members and adopt children from around the world. Because it is not I will just because I’m doing both I just know it’s really not as easy is racing. No, oh, no, in some ways that you’ve had since day one.


Steve Fretzin  [04:34]

Yep. And everybody’s got their different situations and, you know, kids with you know, there’s all kinds of you know, emotional disorders and there’s physical disorders and everything else and you know, we just have to be grateful for for what we’re given and again, how we respond to it and I have a special broom for for slapping my wife off the wall because my son is driving up the wall. So you know, we all have our different situations, right? But um, let’s let’s, let’s talk into how well let’s dive into your background. And then I want to get into how you and I want to hear about how you got into this space because you are the referral ninja master. And that is something every single lawyer would be loved to have that title. Right. So but you have the title. So let’s let’s hear about that.


Stacey Brown Randall  [05:18]

Well, you know, it’s a self selected title that I say that I earned, obviously, right? It does, yeah, I’m allowed to label myself however, I want to label myself right, as long as I’m being kind to myself. But you know, it’s interesting, because I do feel as as if I completely earned that title. Because the my first business that I actually had that I had for about just over four years, it didn’t quite make it to the five year mark, was an HR consulting firm, and it failed. And when I looked back on all the reasons why it failed, I was kind of paying attention to like a word my clients come from, and none of them came from referrals, which really meant I was working entirely too hard. Yeah, for each client that I did land. And it was, you know, I looked back and I was like, wow, I’ve got to figure out how to how to do this business thing. Right, right, let’s like not be a member of the business failure club. Again, when I started my next business, the one that I have now that we’ve been doing almost a decade, but at the same time, also figure out how to make it grow. And I truly discovered, not because I was intending to, but I truly discovered how to generate referrals in the way that I teach it, which is very much without asking without manipulation, without compensation, without networking to know a ton of people. And without just waiting and hoping that they’ll happen. Because I had to make my second business successful, I didn’t start a second business thinking I’m just going to be awesome at referrals and build a business and teach other people how to do it. I literally was like, I cannot fail. Again, corporate America is not where I want to be. And they’re typically not very happy to have me because I don’t play all that well in the sandbox. And so I was like, I just I don’t want to fail again. So I need to figure this out for myself. And that’s what I did. And then as my business started to grow, then people were like, how are you growing? Like, what’s going on? I’m like, Oh, my gosh, I’m getting all these referrals. My first year. In my second business, I got 112 referrals in the first year. And I’ve continued to do around that number every year since and my clients who were small business owners and solopreneurs, a lot of them attorneys. And then the second person I taught this strategy to was an attorney. And they were like, how are you growing? And I’m like, I’m getting referrals. That’s awesome. They’re, like, teach us. And so I shifted my focus, and I started teaching this strategy. And it really is just a way, you know, it’s one of those things I like to tell folks, there are actually a lot of different strategies that you can learn when it comes to referrals. And whereas I believe my strategy is obviously the best. At the end of the day, you have to figure out what works best for you, and what works best for how you want to show up and what works best for what you want to do day in and day out, and what’s the fit your brand, and what’s best for your firm. And so you get to decide like that’s like I always tell it, I would say this on my own podcast, like be the grown up, like make a decision of how you want this to work. And then at that point as you move forward, right, it’ll be a lot easier for you to make those decisions as to what works for you, what will you enjoy doing? And then work it if you like generating referrals and the asking way, do it. If you don’t, don’t, there is another way. And that’s really what I wanted to offer to folks is like, hey, if one way doesn’t work for you, here’s another way to consider.


Steve Fretzin  [08:24]

Well, and the reason that I like your way, and we’re going to hear more about that in a moment is because most lawyers have significant what I call head trash about making an ask right? So here’s a general counsel that has been feeding me $100,000 of business a year for five years. And I’m going to now ask him for something more than he’s already given me or she’s already given me. I don’t feel, you know, if I’m the lawyer, right? I’m not I’m feeling like I would be taking advantage of that relationship. I don’t like rejection. I don’t like making the ask everything about it is uncomfortable. So where I spend a tremendous amount of my time giving lawyers and helping lawyers with language and approaches to make it non salesy. What I’m very excited to hear and have you share is your approach, which means you don’t have to make the ask there’s a there’s a workaround. So let’s let’s talk about what that workaround is because that’s your bread and butter.


Stacey Brown Randall  [09:17]

Yeah, absolutely. And you know, and I would say it to the attorney that’s listening right now that’s like, hey, at the end of the day, I want to always be seen as the expert, right? I mean, at the end of the day, when we show up to do the work that we do, we want to be seen as an expert. And I think sometimes strategies that we’re taught that may not work for us are usually the ones that take us out of that space, is we have to show up differently than we want to then we want to be seen and you guys like I always say like you guys are attorneys, right? Like as lawyers in your space, you are the expert, but there’s so much to running a business that is like outside the realm of just that. And so I always say when you’re looking at it from that perspective, like just pick the things that work for you. You in terms of how you want to show up. And so for me, and for those that I work with, it’s the idea that if you can actually just pay attention to the psychology and kind of like reverse engineer or look a little differently to how referrals actually come to be, we don’t have as much control over them as we think. But there are things we do control. And so to take the asking, right, or the quasi asking piece out of referrals, you really do have to focus on the relationship. And you have to be willing to strengthen and deepen their relationship with your referral sources. And of course, a referral source is any human that refers you. So it may be a client that you’re getting $100,000 worth of business from, but it may also be another attorney. Right, so you can get referrals, not just from clients. But when you’re deepening the relationship with your referral sources, it’s looking at it from that perspective of like, how did they know that I appreciate the referrals that they send to me, and then paying attention to that now how can I influence being able to generate more referrals? And from us, we do it based on how we take care of them. And then the language that we use throughout that process? Because as you know, right, words have power. There’s a lot of meaning in them. There’s, they have a lot of power. And we always say use them for good, or hate like that’s it No, no


Steve Fretzin  [11:21]

evil, no evil, evil, you know, ideas behind the scenes, is that what you’re saying?


Stacey Brown Randall  [11:26]

Yeah, yes, no evil, no evil, manipulation, taking advantage of reciprocity behind the scenes. And, you know, obviously, at the end of the day, I always don’t exist, what I teach will not work for you if you’re also dead inside. So if you’re totally focused on yourself, this is your and be like, I mean, I always tell folks, I’m like you just I always like you just know, when you’re listening to me talk about and I’m teaching someone to listen to my podcasts or reading my book. And they’re getting into my philosophy long before we get into the tactics, right? And the strategies, if the philosophy is like, yeah, no, that’s not gonna work. For me, I’m like, the nothing that I teach will work. Because you really do have to come at it, from that perspective of somebody puts their reputation on the line, every time they refer you to somebody else. And that needs to be respected. And so what I teach comes from that place, okay, how do we respect and strengthen the relationship we have with that person and make sure they know that we are grateful, right? We don’t take their referrals for granted. They? I mean, let’s be honest, there is not one. Maybe there is one right place in the world, where there’s only one attorney in town. Attorneys are no offense. I mean, there’s a long time it doesn’t there’s a dime a dozen, right. I mean, it’s like financial advisors, I’m like real estate agents, financial advisors, and attorneys, just kind of like a dime a dozen, there’s some other ones with a group into that. So if I’m deciding to pick you to refer to, right, above all else, that relationship that I have with you, and I could pick lots of other people to choose from, but I choose you, like, how do we maintain that relationship correctly? How do we build that relationship to start with, right? And then how do we keep it going, but there is a piece and this is the thing that we that we always teach is the framework behind how we like what we do. There’s a framework that’s based on psychology and social economics and some things of terms of like, what we teach the what you’re going to do. And then of course, the what you’re going to say, but it all starts with a place of, hey, these people refer clients to me, and they put their reputation on the line, it’s, it wouldn’t be crazy for me to do a few things differently, to take care of them to make sure they understand how much I appreciate their referrals.


Steve Fretzin  [13:30]

Right? So So let’s give two examples, if you would have of the things that you’re teaching the lawyers to do that helps to solidify the relationship or set up a referral without asking.


Stacey Brown Randall  [13:42]

Okay, number one, and most people are like, this doesn’t make a lot of sense. And like, except for no one’s done it when they usually ship up. Attorneys. Do you know who is actually referring you? Like the identification is such a key piece to knowing what you will do? Because that question, I mean, let’s be honest, right? That question always comes up like, okay, great. What do I do? And what do I say? And I’m always like, that’s not the right. First couple of questions. The right first question is, is do you even know who these people are? Because if your referral sources and most attorneys find themselves in a position where their best referral sources are actually other attorneys, it’s the only industry that I work in where that is actually the case. And I think that’s awesome, because we’re as you guys are competitors, you also don’t necessarily look at it in that perspective, and you’re not afraid whether it’s a conflict check or something else, right. It’s something you don’t do. There is that natural idea of like, well, let me let me find somebody who can write because I don’t do


Steve Fretzin  [14:36]

them. Stacy, people lawyers get excited when they identify a need, and they can’t solve it, but they know a really good person who can like it’s exciting to be able to give a really good referral that you know, is going to is going to take off.


Stacey Brown Randall  [14:51]

Yes. And I’ll be honest, that doesn’t happen in all industries. I think it’s not only unique to attorneys, right? But it is definitely something that is spot show about this industry. It’s one of the reasons why I love working with attorneys. And so number one is the first thing you got to figure out is who’s actually referring you? And when you’re paying attention to who’s referring you, it’s not what you think you can recall, that is so dangerous, that anecdotal evidence is so very dangerous. Yeah, well, you know, I had beers three weeks ago, and we talked about business, and I’m pretty sure we’ve talked about a client that they’re gonna send me. So they’re my referral source, I see that reaction a lot. And I always tell folks, listen, this is where the numbers don’t lie, or the data doesn’t lie. And you’ve got to tell me the data and that what your memory can recall. And so it’s really looking down to like, where do your clients and your prospects come from? Looking back, not just six months, right? But when I’m working with a client, I’m like, we’re gonna go back, if you’ve had your law firm for three or four years, we’re gonna go back three or four years, and we’re gonna pull that information out because there’s such power, and an empowering moment, when you look at who’s been referring you, or where any of your clients and contacts come from, and you’re like, are any of your clients or prospects come from? And you’re like, Oh, these are the things that are working in my business. And these are the things maybe that aren’t. And so identifying the source of where your clients and prospects come from, and then going deeper and be like, Okay, those are that have referred to me who did the referring. So let’s restart.


Steve Fretzin  [16:16]

Okay. So let’s say, for example, that that a lawyer has gotten five matters from another attorney in 2021. And and that’s identified, but they’re not doing anything for that. Other than just being available. So what, what should that what should your client who’s looking to deepen that relationship? Or make that more sustainable for this year? What is something that that that attorney needs to do? Like, right away?


Stacey Brown Randall  [16:42]

So number one, when you’ve identified who those referral sources are, look at the list. Look at the names, because what people get caught up in their head is like, okay, what are the five things I’m supposed to do? Like, what’s this? What’s this with this? And I’m like, what does that list tell you? Right? Because what that list tells you will inform some of the things that you’ll ultimately want to do. But you asked for the number one thing, right, that you should do, like right away, and that is to ask yourself, did you properly thank them for those five referrals last year, and if you did not send a hand written, thank you card, nothing counts, it doesn’t matter. It’s like I always tell my kids when you know, they always think it’s the thought that counts. And like your thought, to put your shoes away, but not actually doing it, the thought does not count like it actually doesn’t matter, I need your shoes put away. It’s the same thing with how we properly think. And a lot of people think the text message or the email responses will suffice. In the moment, of course, you can send the text message or the email, right, but I need you to go a step further. And I need you to write a thank you note every time you’re referred. And I need you to thank them for who they refer to you. Right. So we call this the thank by name. And it’s the idea that it’s you’re reminding them what they’ve already done. Because that is the best way to solidify in their mind that they refer you is the by the who they actually refer to you, which means you have to track this information. You have to you have to be able to be like, well, who are these five people? They referred to you last year, but not just that, who are the five people they referred to you last year that became clients, but I’m guessing they probably also referred you a couple other folks that either something changed, they went in a different direction, or they’re on hold in your process. And those are other people you need to be able to thank them for because we never think our referral sources for those that became clients. We think our referral sources for those they send to us whether they become a client or not. Yeah, so you’ve got to do the Thank you. That’s super important. Like right away. It’s like the number one thing everybody listening can do. Why do they do anything else that is something you all can do


Jordan Ostroff  [18:45]

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Steve Fretzin  [19:35]

and Stacey. I mean, I may be speaking out of turn here, but it’s maybe a couple of percent out of 100% that do that. I mean, the people that work with you, it must be mandatory as part of the deal of working with you. But I can tell you I mean, I’ve been saying thank you notes and cards and stuff for years and I don’t think anyone’s doing it really. So I think it’s one of those situations where when that referral source gets it, it means a lot more because they’re not getting any other thank you cards from anybody there.


Stacey Brown Randall  [20:04]

They’re not I have people who reach out to me on LinkedIn. And they’re like, why are people so bad at saying thank you when I refer them? And I don’t just mean the, in the moment, the email the text message, right. But I mean, like a thank you note, and I’m like, they were more than likely we will probably all raised to know to do it. It’s just a lost art form of sending that thank you card. And loads. I’ll tell you here are the biggest. But do I have two that I get from attorneys? Number one? My handwriting stinks. Yeah. So I just I just think, right? I know I always tell my attorneys I’m like I get it, you’re like my doctor, I got it, okay, handwriting’s not great. But at the end of the day, I, I always tell folks this and if I’m nothing if not straightforward, I don’t care. Like I just I’m sorry. Like, I know, that doesn’t sound all kind and like, you know, warm and, you know, kind hearted. But at the end of the day, this person just gifted you a potential new client, and you can’t take the one minute it’s going to take to print out a thank you card. Like I just and I know, like, there’s there’s things that I teach my all my clients and I say the same thing over and over again to them is that you have to be able to send that thank you note, you have to be able to make sure as you’re sending that thank you note from that perspective, right? That it’s a hand written, that is the one that ultimately will matter. And it’s crazy to me how many people are like, Wait, my handwriting stinks. Can I have an assistant write it for me? Right? Or they’re like, Are you sure? I can’t use like a third party service to pretend right? This with the robot form? Yeah. And my answers are always No. and No.


Steve Fretzin  [21:40]

All right, I have I have an offbeat question for you on the same topic. I have a remarkable two pad that I use for everything. I have no paper now I could write thank you cards. What I’ve been doing lately, is I’ve been writing a handwritten thank you card on this and then emailing that handwritten card. Good, bad or not so bad.


Stacey Brown Randall  [22:02]

So I’m gonna say Not good. Not good. Okay. The fact that you’re saying thank you was great. But here’s what people forget about the impact that it is to receive a thank you card in the mail. A, like you said earlier, we’re not doing it. Right. So the fact that you would do one that would arrive in someone’s mailbox is going to immediately have impact. But what people forget, that is most impactful about a thank you card, the words matter, they totally matter that you say thank you, right? That totally matters. But actually, it’s what it says about that. And what it says about them is that they’re worth your time. They’re worth your time to take the two minutes out to pull out the card or keep a stack on your desk, right? And write that thank you card. And you know,


Steve Fretzin  [22:48]

the whole the whole nine yards.


Stacey Brown Randall  [22:50]

Yes, I mean, it’s so it’s so funny. So I have a number of attorneys that are in my program, building a referral business. And this is this is my signature program where people actually we do like weekly sessions, and there’s some one on ones in addition to all my strategies, and we were on a call once. And we had an attorney Katherine, and she was like, Okay, I’ve written my thank you cards. And this is something specific she’s doing for part of her referral plan that I teach my clients. And she was like, I’ve gotten written, stamped and addressed. I just got to get them out to the mailbox. And I was like, Katherine, you know, that’s the easiest step right, is to take the cards from your desk when the hard work is done, and put him in the mailbox. And you know, we all laughed, or whatever. It was hilarious. Yeah. And of course, when she came back around next week for accountability, she’s like, I made it to the mailbox, I got them in the mailbox. But like, yes, the idea is, is that they have impact we don’t pay attention to. Because in the hustle bustle with the busyness of our day, it feels like one more to do item that I don’t know if I want to stop and do. But the truth is, at the end of the day, think about what this person did for you, they should be worth your two minutes to actually take care of sending that thank you card. And what makes it easier. If you have the thank you cards, if you have the envelopes, if you have the stamps, and if you collect those folks and dress as they refer you because usually if they refer you one, there’s a very good chance they’re going to refer you more. And if that’s the case, then you should always have like, you know, we keep a spreadsheet with my team of the addresses of the people who refer me so it’s never more than two clicks away, or someone copying and pasting something over to me like, Hey, here’s the address for that thank you card. Like it’s whatever you got to do make it easy on you is my point. Because you need to do it. Okay,


Steve Fretzin  [24:25]

so thank you cards is is an outdated thing that people think isn’t a factor anymore. In its absolute opposite. It’s more important than ever, to show that appreciation in a personal way. What would be another? So that’s that if that’s part of that relationship, sustaining and building exercise, what would be another tip that you would say, Look, you don’t have to ask for referrals, but you have to do this.


Stacey Brown Randall  [24:49]

Yeah, so here’s the thing. So I teach a strategy that blends together specific outreach that you’re going to be doing so many times a year we typically fall in the range of four to eight times a year, most folks in their first year going to fall in that 567, or eight range. Once you’ve been doing this year after year, you can kind of I’ll be honest, get away with a little bit less. But it’s this way that we kind of do this outreach to our referral sources. And it’s not just the what we’re doing. It’s the language that we’re using. That’s where the magic kind of comes into place. It’s not really magic, but that’s what we like to call it. It’s where these pieces actually fit together. It’s like if the outreach you’re doing to your referral sources is the meat and potatoes, then the language that you use is the secret sauce that actually makes that meal taste right. And that’s how we kind of plant the we call them referral seeds, the language piece. And that’s how we kind of plant that subconscious desire for referrals moving forward, without ever, ever having to act like we’re asking or like we’re hinting or any of that stuff that everybody can read through because everybody’s, you know, what meter is really on high alert these days. And so and that’s not what we want to do for these folks, right? We want to take care of them, we want to be genuine, this has got to come from the heart. And so it is the outreach that we do. But what people get so stuck in is like, what is my outreach? Well, the truth is the outreach, I would tell someone to do, and the language piece that would go along with that. Like if you had a whole bunch of people on your list that were men and women in their 50s, that happened to refer you, what we would talk about doing is gonna look a little bit different than if you had a bunch of referral sources that were in their 20s. Right. So we do look for commonalities amongst our referral sources. There’s not like one type, that probably refers you, there’s probably a mix, but you can look for commonalities. And I think people overlook that as they’re trying to create these out these touch points, or these outreaches that you’re going to do. Because you’re not doing individual ones. It’s not like eight different touch points for you. And then eight different touch points for you, Steve, and then eight different touch points for Sally over here.


Steve Fretzin  [26:44]

You’re you’re you’re not putting them in or you’re putting him in, in banking of groups. Yeah,


Stacey Brown Randall  [26:49]

well, and usually actually, a lot of times, if we just spend a little bit of time thinking about our referral sources and what they ultimately need, we actually can do one touch point and deliver it to all and yet, even though it’s like feels like it’s in mass, it’s completely personalized, because of the what we’re doing and the language that we’re using. And that is really, what I always tell folks like that is at the heart of what I teach my clients is what that framework looks like to get to the right touch points to get to the right language, as well. And but at the end of the day, again, like it always goes back to its you wanting to take care of the people who take care of your business differently than you’ve ever done it before. And it’s really, really important. But you mentioned something earlier about like, what about the attorney who always sends me business, right? Like I always get business, and I always get referrals from this one person? Do I really need to do this for someone who’s already consistently referring me? And I always hope that kind of answer is always going to be situational. But at the end of the day, taking care of the people who take care of your business in a better way certainly can’t hurt.


Steve Fretzin  [27:47]

And I don’t want you to give away too much of the secret sauce, because you should be getting some calls, you know, for people that are looking at I like I like, you know the cut of your jib or whatever the saying is, but I’ve heard that before. Yeah, but okay, um, but can you give an example of that outreach? You said four to eight outreaches? In someone’s listening to the skin? And that sounds great. What would be an example of that? Obviously, we know thank you cards, okay, there. But now on the on the outreach for that Bank of, of, let’s say top referral partners, what would be an example of that?


Stacey Brown Randall  [28:19]

Yeah, so actually, the thank you cards are gonna fall outside of those four to eight touch points in a year, because every time they refer you, you’re going to send a thank you card. So the first thing like right off the bat, yep, that’s the first thing. And obviously there are when we we teach those four to eight touch points, we actually do teach us a couple of things you’ve got to do, because we need to make sure that we’re creating the right experience using all of the brain science and psychology factors into place of how we take care of people. But you know, one thing I always have people come to me and they’re like gifts, right? gifts have to be a big part of this plan. And you know, there’s a great book out and I can’t remember the author that gift ology. It’s all about a great book, I mean, the great gifts that you can give, and they’re usually really, really expensive. And I always tell folks, I was like, don’t over don’t overlook or overestimate how powerful right like a single tiny gift can be. Right? So a big one that I have a lot of my attorneys use this one, which I think is hilarious. There’s a lot of people in the program that use it too. But like St. Patrick’s Day, right? They Patrick’s Day and sending that St. Patrick’s Day card that no one’s probably expecting to get from attorney right at that day. But then in screen, including like a scratch off lottery ticket, right? At the end of the day, you’re like, oh, actually, the odds of you winning are like that much, right? big fat zero. But the truth is, it’s different. And it’s going to be that pattern interrupt, it’s going to be the surprise and delight factor. And, and those are all the pieces of how the psychology piece rolls into this. But it’s looking at it in that way and understanding it from that perspective, that this doesn’t have to be you’re sending them the most expensive bottle of wine, like you don’t have to do biggest sometimes it’s the small things that are going to catch people’s attention because they’re unexpected. But yet, right we’re using the right language and all the pieces that pulled us in together and we’re not doing something every day, week or month, like there’s a cadence to when and what we do. And so we always tell folks Whereas no two plans for any attorney will ever look the same, there, there will be a framework behind all of them. That is very similar.


Steve Fretzin  [30:07]

You know, and I like I I’m going to sort of suggest or put out there and you mentioned this in the beginning of our of our chat today that there’s, you know, a lot of different ways to do things. And what you’re suggesting is a way of adding value of touching base of saying thank you have a consist in a consistent way that drives the referral business in a sustainable way. The thing that I add to that is do do everything you’re saying. But then let’s say that it isn’t getting the results you’re looking for, you have a strong relationship with the person. And I’m teaching lawyers, you know, every day how to make the ask, but to but not to say, Hey, I’m sending, you know, I’m doing all this for you. Where’s, where’s it for me? Right? Or, don’t you dare, so I should maybe maybe I should start now. So but of course, in that the greatest fear of every lawyer is that is that conversation of where they could get rejected or where they they’re stepping above their, you know, their, their, you know, placement to to make an asset that hasn’t been earned. But if you have a client, I’m just gonna put this out there and you have done for that client, you’ve saved the day you’ve won and litigation, you’ve referred them stuff, you’ve been sending them, thank you cards, you’ve doing all that, and it’s still not coming back to you. You might want to come up with some language to say, you know, look, you know, this is what has been going on, I know, You’ve been very happy, I have a feeling that I might be in a position to help others that you know, in a similar way, you know, is that something we can have a conversation about? Are you comfortable with that, and it’s permission based? That might be what you need to do at the end of the day, if it isn’t kind of coming away around the way you had hoped for with all the best intentions, Stacy, of what you’re putting out there? Is that ever something that you have to step into?


Stacey Brown Randall  [31:52]

So no, but you were you I think you’re applying the tactic that you teach to someone who isn’t referring that attorney yet. And what I’m talking about are the things that we do to people who are already are already in there. They’re already doing it, right? Because that’s the way that the language piece, the language piece and the touch points work. To your point, though, I do have another strategy where what if you need people referring you what if you want those clients and contacts referring you that aren’t right, I teach a different strategy to get them there. And mine will be the opposite of what you’re teaching. But again, right to your point, if you’re comfortable having that conversation with a client, and you’re comfortable using not the Hey, you give me all the business, you know, right, using veteran language, like what you said, and I think that’s great. But I think there’s a lot of attorneys out there. They’re like, I’m not even okay with that language. Where does that leave me? And I always say, well, then I have a process of how we turn potential referral sources into or what we call soon to be referral sources into referral sources, your strategy, right? Well, if it’s going to work, it will work faster, my strategy will take longer, right when it works, right, it’ll come back around. But this is all about how you’re comfortable showing up. And whereas I believe wholeheartedly in my strategy, because it’s where, you know, my folks are comfortable showing up, you’ve seen yours work to


Steve Fretzin  [33:08]

teach in this I wouldn’t be teaching. Right, exactly.


Stacey Brown Randall  [33:11]

So I think it’s a matter of when so what we’ve talked about for the majority of this episode has been based on hey, these people already referring you, I just want to show you how to capitalize to get more referrals from them, and a strategy where you’re not having to ask or compensate or be manipulative, right. But what you’re talking about is getting that person who’s never referred you to refer you for the first time. You’re right, there’s a couple of different strategies. There’s the one that you teach, and then there’s one that I will teach, that is going to be different, but it’s going to be a slow burn. And so I tell folks that coming right in, like, hey, at the end of the day, like what I’m going to teach you is totally going to work. I mean, I’ve had people turn dozens of people into referral sources every year in their business, following this strategy, but it is not gonna happen with one conversation, right, that you may ultimately have with them. It’s gonna be like it’s it. I always say like that approach that you’re teaching is like going right in the front door, like, hey, it’s permission based. We’re going right on the front door. Yeah, my strategy to turn someone into referral source is going to go in the side door.


Steve Fretzin  [34:05]

Yep. And I think if you put them together, right, you can even get further because you you’ve got all this goodwill and all this value that you’re adding and all these, you know, thank yous and everything that you’re doing. And, you know, if I’m, if I’m giving my clients business, if I’m sending them stuff, and I’m referring them, and I’m doing everything that you’re saying, in a positive way, and it’s still not coming back, then you know, yeah, I mean, at some point, you need to have that conversation. You just don’t want to do it in a way that’s going to turn anybody off. That’s really the key that has to be done in a non salesy way. But it’s every lawyer has to figure out what you know, what’s going to work for him or her. And I think you’ve got amazing ideas. And I’m going to kind of wrap up by just saying thank you for doing what you do and the value you bring to the industry. And this is this is where lawyers just get left behind in law school and at the law firm level, and why what you and I do are is so important because it’s, it’s just it’s it is all learnable stuff. Totally.


Stacey Brown Randall  [35:04]

And at the end of the day, I think referrals, I mean referrals to attorneys, it’s like attorneys have that chance to really get referrals a lot just based on the nature of what you do. And the fact that when I choose an attorney, I don’t want to screw it up, right. So I would rather be referred to someone that somebody trusts, so they’re in this position to receive more referrals. And that’s the idea when, you know, I’m looking at the attorneys that I’ve worked with, and we’ve taken someone from 30 referrals a year to almost 70 in a year. And he was like, Oh, I just didn’t realize I needed to be doing these few things. And I could double right or triple the referrals that I’m receiving. I’m another law firm out on the West Coast. You know, there were well over 100 I think they were 140. And they’re like, oh my gosh, we’ve been sitting on this potential for years. I’m like, yes, yes, you have. And they’re like, This is crazy. So yes, I think the idea that when you look at this, it is about finding the right fit for you. I always tell folks don’t mix strategies, right? So decide the strategy you’re going to use and then use it and make sure it works for you and then great and if not, you can always shift to a different approach. But at the end of the day, you got to find what works for you.


Steve Fretzin  [36:03]

Yep. And if people want to get in touch with you to learn more to buy your book to listen your podcast to get in touch with you to learn all that you know about being a referral ninja master what how do they reach you?


Stacey Brown Randall  [36:16]

Yes, all the things can be found on the home base, which is our website, Stacy brown Stacy is spelled with an E. Stacy brown But you can find the book generating business referrals without asking you can find a link to the podcast, which is roadmap to grow your business all the things are there free resources articles to read, you can dive in you can even take a quiz to figure out if you’re a referral ninja master or maybe not if you may be a referral ninja beginner but there’s a quiz you can take to figure out what referral ninja level you are. It’s all on my website Stacy brown


Steve Fretzin  [36:47]

Awesome. Yeah, in anytime you can. You can identify gaps. That’s a great way to know. Yeah, I’ve got this thing down or I’m way off and boy, I need a lot of help. And that’s okay, because at least you know where you are.


Stacey Brown Randall  [37:00]

Yeah, and then you can figure out where you want to go. That is it. That is it.


Steve Fretzin  [37:03]

Well, thank you so much this I enjoyed our pre interview call very much I enjoyed this podcast a tremendous amount. You’re just you’re just not only a ball of energy and you’re very bright but also you just you are the ninja master of referral. So I mean self self prescribed. That’s okay. You know, I think I think you’ve earned it so thank you. Yeah, thank you and we’ll we’ll keep in the loop with each other.


Stacey Brown Randall  [37:28]

I hope we can that sounds great. Yes, definitely.


Steve Fretzin  [37:31]

Good stuff. Hey everybody, thank you for spending some time with Stacey and I today you know again the goal is that you’re taking little you know things away an example here and idea there you realize that you’re not doing certain things right identifying those gaps and taking action so you can be that lawyer someone who’s competent organized in a skilled Rainmaker. Be safe be well, we’ll talk again soon, everybody. Bye bye.


Narrator  [37:57]

Thanks for listening to be that lawyer. Life changing strategies and resources for growing a successful law practice. Visit Steve’s website For additional information, and to stay up to date on the latest legal business development and marketing trends. For more information and important links about today’s episode, check out today’s show notes