Steve Hamburg: Thriving in the Uncomfortable

In this episode, Steve Fretzin and Steve Hamburg discuss:

  • Pursuing meaningful pursuits with a higher degree of conversion.
  • Moving past the stigma of being a salesperson in your own mind.
  • Practical tips for sales free selling.
  • Creating your structure around selling to gain comfort with selling.

Key Takeaways:

  • Winging it is not a strategy or a process.
  • Engage a sales journal into your process in a way that works for you. If you can quantify it, you can track it and understand what you need to do in order to understand what activities are the most important.
  • If you are planning on running your own firm, you have to be married to that venture. If you have a partner/spouse, you will want them to be on board with you.
  • Luck favors those that work the hardest.

“To be a successful entrepreneur, you need to be willing to subject yourself to what makes you the most uncomfortable and thrive.” —  Steve Hamburg

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Show notes by Podcastologist Chelsea Taylor-Sturkie

Audio production by Turnkey Podcast Productions. You’re the expert. Your podcast will prove it.




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Narrator, Steve Hamburg, Steve Fretzin, Jordan Ostroff


Steve Hamburg  [00:00]

To be a successful entrepreneur, you need to be willing to subject yourself to what makes you the most uncomfortable and thrive in networking was was definitely within that category.


Narrator  [00:19]

You’re listening to be that lawyer, life changing strategies and resources for growing a successful law practice. Each episode, your host, author and lawyer, coach, Steve Fretzin, will take a deeper dive helping you grow your law practice in less time with greater results. Now, here’s your host, Steve Fretzin.


Steve Fretzin  [00:41]

Hey, everybody, welcome to be that lawyer, I hope you’re having a fabulous day. It is Friday here in Chicago near the beginning of February. And, you know, listen, I can’t state it more than I do that, you know, without having your own book of a book of business without having, you know, the right processes procedures in place without understanding how to, you know, market hire, fire or whatever. They don’t make things very difficult. So, you know, again, go back and listen to some past episodes. I’ve got recruiters on I’ve got executive coaches on I’ve got marketing experts and everybody else, and just try to pull it, you know, takeaway here and a takeaway there. And I think you’re gonna find it’s a good use of your time, especially if you’re in your car, walking your dog or something, where you’re not focused on doing billable work, hard to focus on two things at once. We want to take a moment before I introduce my good friend, Steve Hamburg. And just thank my sponsors money, Penny and legalese marketing. These are two great partners, if you haven’t checked them out, please do money. Penny does a ton of things, but mainly focused on helping you get interaction on your website with a chatbot. Someone that’s live, talking to people interacting to get you that intake. And also they do the reception. So if you actually need someone answering the phones for you, money, Penny is the way to go. And then, of course, legalese, who handles my newsletter, my social media, my podcast, and in some ways, and the graphic design and all the different things that I do to get my, you know, the word out there about my business. legalese is the way to go. And they work with law firms. And me, that’s about it. So I do want to introduce Steve Hamburg, he gave me a quote, and it is, if you can’t do business with your friends, you can’t do business with anyone. And that was from a prior mentor of yours. Is that accurate? That is correct. All right. Well, Steve Hamburg is not only a very old friend of mine, not just because he’s old. And I’m old, that’s okay. But he’s got he’s got the greatest beard, you do. But he also is a past client of mine. And we’re gonna, we’re gonna make every effort to have a really good meaningful conversation today and not make it into a total love fest. But I can’t promise that at some point, this won’t get into a little bit of a love fest, because we do have an affinity for each other. So Steve, welcome to the show.


Steve Hamburg  [02:52]

Hey, I really appreciate you inviting me to participate. I love your podcast. It’s it’s great to be here.


Steve Fretzin  [02:58]

Yeah. Well, you’re not a lawyer. So why are you on the show?


Steve Hamburg  [03:01]

Well, I’m on the show, because I am somewhat of a serial entrepreneur. I’ve learned, you know, some things along my journey, which is not over. And you know, you and I had some dialogue, and we thought it’d be very synergistic and beneficial to your listeners, for me to jump on and have a great conversation with you.


Steve Fretzin  [03:19]

Yeah, and I don’t think that many people know that I had a life before working with attorneys. I had a company called sales results, Inc. And that company focused on helping entrepreneurs with their business development. And I worked in over 50 industries over a number of years before I decided to push my chips into the middle of the table with working with lawyers and law firms, and just lawyers. And Steve was one of my earlier clients. And so I know, I know, we talked about the origin story of how we met and how we decided to work together and I thought it’d be kind of fun for you to go through that.


Steve Hamburg  [03:53]

Yeah, absolutely. So you had a president’s luncheon many years ago, where you invited various business owners as well as people, senior inversed various organizations. And one of the members of that community, David Panitch, great guy invited me to attend one of your president’s luncheons. And long story short, at that same time, I was struggling with sales for my own cybersecurity consulting company that I founded in 2003. I really resonated with the format of the luncheon the meeting, and you and I hit it off pretty well. And so, you know, I decided to engage you to help me the sale sell the origin story. i Let’s see my last job before I started my first company was with Deloitte and Touche, and I was in the cybersecurity consulting industry. And while I was there, I was among the top billable consultants, but I also was among the top revenue generating sales People back then Deloitte referred to salespeople as business development managers, while business development, management was not officially part of my title, I was a very unique hybrid. So I thought, man, you know, I’m great at consulting in the cybersecurity space. I’m also an awesome salesperson, I realized after I started my company, I was still a great consultant. But I realized that was not a salesperson, I took for granted how the brand, Deloitte, you know, with 100 plus 1000 employees at the time, opened a lot of doors for me, all I had to do was reach out to anybody, say, I’m with Deloitte, and I got a meeting. And that harsh reality is when I started my own firm, even though I had the experience at Deloitte, that didn’t open any doors for me. So that is what drove me to seek a sales coach. And then again, because, you know, we resonated with each other, and we seem to have a lot of interest in helping each other, I engage your services. And that’s how we eventually enter that working relationship.


Steve Fretzin  [06:07]

Yeah, and I think we got started and, you know, kind of put you into a class with other entrepreneurs, as well, as, you know, the one on ones that we had together, and I did it remind me if I’m correct, did we hit a speed bump fairly early on in the process?


Steve Hamburg  [06:22]

I don’t think we hit a speed bump. But you did. Help me tremendously in that, you know, one thing that I learned through this speed bump, if you will, is I was very emotionally attached to a certain pursuit that I was pursuing. And you recognize immediately that I was providing all this free consulting, in hopes that was going to land what would have been an enormous contract. And you could tell from the insights I was sharing with you that they were just milking me for free consulting with no intent to engage me. And you said, Steve, you know, my recommendation would be to abandon this pursuit entirely. Because I see Fretzin have a very low degree of confidence is going to materialize, it was very hard for me to do. But having faith in our relationship and what you were teaching me, I abandoned it. And then obviously, in hindsight, not that long later, I realized that was the best thing I could have done because it freed my resources up to pursue much more meaningful pursuits that had a much higher degree of converting, but other than that, I don’t recall really, any speed bumps. Okay, okay.


Steve Fretzin  [07:27]

Yeah, maybe I’m mistaken on that. But one of the things that I think we recognized early on was that you were, you know, getting in front of people and doing that free consulting, and that you really didn’t have a process to follow. So for those of you who, you know, are out there, just just trying to sell services, legal services, etc. And you’re making pitches and you’re going out and meeting with people, and you’re not really seeing great results. In some cases, it’s because winging it isn’t a strategy, and it’s not a process. And so I think we also realized fairly early on that you were, you really didn’t have a structured process to follow. And so that’s one of the things that I want to talk about is kind of what was, you know, what was the process that we worked on together, which, by the way, I’ve refined and refined and refined and now, you know, it’s, it’s, it’s really, I think it a really high and a really elevated level of of success in the improvements I’ve made, because we worked together a long, long time ago. So of course, I


Steve Hamburg  [08:21]

do want to interject, yeah. And I want to say, Yes, I absolutely recognize that didn’t have a sales process. And that was one of the key reasons why I engaged your services to begin with. And again, the harsh reality was when I realized I didn’t have that Deloitte brand. And then I realized, man, I have no clue. Not only you know how to sell, but it was obvious to me, I had no sales process. And that was a big driver for me. And that was something that you recognized immediately. Right?


Steve Fretzin  [08:52]

Right. So talk about the sales process. So I’ve been teaching this, this, running this program called sales, free selling, which is the title of my first book, which we’ll come back to in a few minutes. But sales Free selling sort of resonates with people, especially people that don’t want to be a salesman, they don’t want to be seen as a salesman. And how does the approach that we worked on together differ from either what you were doing or other things that you that you’re aware of at the


Steve Hamburg  [09:17]

time? Well, first of all, I had a fear of selling in the classical sense, because I always got the used car salesman syndrome. I thought, man, anytime I try to pitch anybody, I’m going to come across slimy and because of that stigma, I had a fear you know, going into it that man, I just don’t want to be perceived as some sleazy guy that’s trying to milk anybody I can for you know money in the context of cybersecurity consulting services. So that was one big obstacle that you helped me overcome. But aside from that, I am an engineer by background, I am a licensed civil structural engineer. So I am all about process before Anything is, again, from a sales perspective, there was no process at all. But that’s why I recognize the importance of it, and the fact that I needed one. But in terms of how we work together, first of all, obviously, you had a very structured, regimented, multi step process, you knew exactly where the sales process began, you know exactly where it ended, and you had all the steps in between. And then aside from that, you also introduced me to the journal, which was huge for me, because with my engineering background, I’m obviously a very quantitative person. And so with that sales journal, you said, hey, the more activity you engage in, the greater the likelihood that you’re going to close consulting engagements. And so what you did is you introduced the journal concept to me, and then we work together to customize it to tailor to exactly what I was focusing on. So for example, making a cold call might have a point value of one point assigned to it, closing an engagement might have 10 points assigned to it. And the way the journal works is each and every day, we agreed upon a certain number of points, that I would try to hit each and every day. And then as I started to consistently hit those points on a daily basis, we would increase them to the point where eventually I was extremely active. And then also, you helped me identify through the turtle, the activities that contributed most profoundly towards actually closing, consulting, engagement sales. So the journal was a huge deal. And then lastly, in terms of sales, pre selling, that process that regimented process they introduced me to and the reason why I was able to overcome my fear of sales so quickly, is I recognize that, yes, it was sales. But it was kind of analogous to me being a physician. And the patient comes in the patient has symptoms, and you as the physician are engaging in dialogue, as well as observing the patient trying to understand and diagnose what the issue is. So from the sales process perspective, that’s essentially what I was doing in the context of cybersecurity, what are your issues? What are your concerns? What’s keeping you awake at night? How is this affecting you personally, and professionally. And then, once I was able to diagnose what the issue was, is that alluded to earlier in our conversation, I am a great consultant. So it’s easy for me to then architect what the solution would be to address what their security needs were. But I couldn’t get there until we had that conversation. And the conversation was just inherently so natural. Thanks to that sales, free selling process and structure they introduced me to. And once I got a full grasp of what that meant, you might recall, I was off to the races. And I think I’m correct, in that. We identified a seven figure sales goal. And I think that we hit that together and six or seven months. Yeah, it was unbelievable. Yeah. Which is why we have this love for each other because you love me, because I worked so hard. And I was very successful. And then obviously, I love you, because you really dug me out of any enormous hole, you know, that I was in?


Steve Fretzin  [13:36]

Yeah, and I think I think it takes two to tango, right? The coach and the student, the coach and the player. And you were just such an amazing player, that I knew that when I gave you process, and I gave you structure and journaling and all these things to do and you did them that that you are going to do great. And I have a funny little story. Another thing I used to give Steve was a thing called a client review sheet also known as a cheat sheet, right? And this was a 50 Pat a 50 pages of sort of like my program, my sales Free selling process on a sheet of paper that takes you through all the different steps building relationship, and setting an agenda, identifying, you know, that Steve mentioned the diagnosis and, and I and all those all the steps that are involved. And he went through all 50 and he came back to me goes, I need another pad. And I go What do you


Steve Hamburg  [14:24]

remember that hard time you’re like, how could you possibly have gone through that so quickly? I was going through pads like crazy. And then obviously you were more too happy to give me more. But that’s true. I’ll never forget that. That was all.


Steve Fretzin  [14:37]

But the other part of it you may not remember is I said do you really need another pad if you’ve done 50 plus of these meetings, don’t you sort of have it like down you don’t do really need to look down at a piece of paper that gives you sort of cheat sheet notes because you have this now in you it’s not something that you know, it’s like a muscle memory, but for your brain around this process.


Steve Hamburg  [14:58]

Oh yeah. You might recall that The reason why I used it is because it enabled you to take notes, right? Yeah. So I used it because it was all structured, it had all the steps was populated with my notes. And I remember conversations we have where traditionally, you couldn’t get enough information for some, you know, the other people, you were coaching with me, I was giving you encyclopedias. And I think that that is definitely a key aspect of what contributed to our success, because I was, you know, hit the ground running, and I was taking a lot of notes. And you may recall, I would call you as well frequently saying, Hey, I had this meeting, I got to this point, I think I made a minute mistake. And then you were able to identify, you know, the issue, and then I could correct it moving forward. I mean, we had a lot of dialogue. But again, six, seven months, we hit that huge target. And it was incredible. Yeah, and


Steve Fretzin  [15:51]

I encourage my clients, you know, part of part of the deal I have with them is, is being on retainer. So it isn’t just the one on ones in the classes. And that type of thing. I encourage every client, I have will will tell you that I encourage them to call me I encourage them to email me to interact with me more than then then just attending a class or showing up for one on one because I know the more that we work on little things like potential mistakes that were made in a meeting, or a question that wasn’t asked that should have been or just debriefing something that happened to identify, is there a way to get back in even though it seems like the door might be closed? Maybe there’s a way back in those conversations are really a big part of the growth process for someone to learn, you know how to be a better professional, you know, in getting business?


Steve Hamburg  [16:37]

Absolutely. Yeah.


Jordan Ostroff  [16:39]

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Steve Fretzin  [17:30]

And so we did great together. And then it’s so funny. I remember also, we had dinner together at um, here in the Chicagoland area. And I think they move locations but a place called the claim company and it was you and your wife, Betsy, and my wife, Lisa, and the four of us sat down. And he goes, Steve, I got a great idea for you. Now, do you remember that or no?


Steve Hamburg  [17:47]

Oh, yeah. I said, Hey, man, you gotta gotta write a book. That’s in like a story, a plot setting. But that’s an easy read. It progresses naturally. And upon completing the book, people will learn your sales system, your sales process? Absolutely. Obviously, I think you’ve recently finished your fourth book now. Is that right? Yeah,


Steve Fretzin  [18:11]

that’s out there. legal business development isn’t rocket science, everybody. That’s the name?


Steve Hamburg  [18:15]

Yeah. But I remember when I initially pitched it, it was a lukewarm kind of.


Steve Fretzin  [18:21]

And I can, I can tell you why. It’s, it’s very, it was very overwhelming for me to think about not only writing a book, but also what you were suggesting was different than I’d written articles. Before I can write articles, I can pump out I think a pretty darn good article and about an hour like with lots of takeaways and lots of goods goodies in there. But you were you were suggesting that I write a book, similar to the book The goal, right, which remember that that was like a book on how to run a factory or something, right, which I read. And I was like, Oh, my God, and how am I going to write this with characters and dialogue? And I’ve never written anything like that?


Steve Hamburg  [18:58]

Yes, no. And, you know, we discussed the concept further, and you nailed it. I mean, it’s a wonderful, wonderful book. Yeah. I was just gonna say, you know, writing, the books that you’ve read, that also really bolsters your credibility. Yeah,


Steve Fretzin  [19:14]

yeah. I think the books do I mean, look, I’m very proud of them. And I know there’s a lot of attorneys that are that are never going to work with me directly. And if I have a way of, of touching them through my books, through my podcast, through articles, through videos, whatever it might be, then I feel like I’m doing I’m doing a good service for the industry, the legal industry. And quite frankly, I only have the capacity to work with X number of lawyers a year anyway. So the books the books have been great in the latest one I’m really proud of, I mean, that’s over 50 chapters of my greatest hits, and it’s covering a lot of ground so people that have have gotten the book and read the book. We’re a little overwhelmed actually. They’re like, this is a lot man, how’d you stuff all that in there? Well, I saw over six years of content put into that thing. So worked out well. But anyway, it’s been a it’s been a lot of fun in, in all that and what’s happened to you since so so you, you got to the point where you were doing really well with your businesses. And I think you sold a couple right?


Steve Hamburg  [20:11]

Yeah. So I founded my first cybersecurity consulting company in 2003. I ended up selling that in 2017. So that was an operation under my, you know, ownership oversight and management for close to 15 years. And then in 2008, I started a second security consulting company, but that was solely in the energy sector. That one I sold in 2013. So that was a pretty quick exit five years. I also started a philanthropic math tutoring company. I did that in 2015, I had some aspirations in teaching at the high school level mathematics. As you can imagine getting a master’s in engineering, I had a very strong extensive math background, rather than pursuing the teaching route, because that would require me to go back to college. And I had a lot of other entrepreneurial aspirations that I wanted to pursue, I decided to start this philanthropic math tutoring company, which was just me. And I donated everything to organizations that 65 to 70 organizations, I was the only tutor that 50 $60,000 There were a lot of families where I didn’t charge them anything because there was a need space fee structure, if you will. I sold that actually last year, and then came up with a brilliant idea to buy a restaurant right before the pandemic. I bought that in early 2019. I want to operate that it’s still in operation, but it’s been brutal during the pandemic. But that’s just a quick overview of my entrepreneurial activities. And


Steve Fretzin  [21:55]

I remember how great things were going before the pandemic, your social media was kick in, like you had built the business up far beyond what it had been before. And then bull what a kick in the teeth on the on the COVID.


Steve Hamburg  [22:09]

Right? Yeah, I mean, just to help people understand. We bought that restaurant in February of 19. And as you can imagine, we had to replace almost all the staff, we had to come up with new operating procedures using the existing operating restaurant. And there was no closure whatsoever. So the day we took over was the first day, you know, we were an operation. And in those 10 and a half months, we did over a million dollars in sales, which was extraordinary. Then the pandemic hit early 20. Just to give you an idea we did 200,000 and sales. Yeah, in 2020. So the pandemic has been catastrophic for most restaurants, as well as obviously many other industries. It’s, it’s really introduced a lot of crazy challenges, but we’re still there, we’re still fighting. And, you know, we’re thankful for that, for sure.


Steve Fretzin  [23:05]

I don’t know if I’m speaking out of turn, but I feel like we’re we’re coming around a corner. I mean, you’re we’re always breweries ready for the next, you know, turn around a corner and get punched in the face. But like, I feel like I feel like we’re starting to turn a corner and maybe this, you know, another couple months, and we might be through something that we haven’t been through before. So, you know, that’s that’s my optimism, right? Coming, coming out right there. But I believe


Steve Hamburg  [23:29]

me as a restaurant owner, particularly I hope you’re right, but there continues to be a lot of unknowns, but it’s an animal, for sure.


Steve Fretzin  [23:38]

Got it? Well, let’s, let’s ramp up with a couple of a couple of tips that you can give to my listening audience, things that we worked on together over the years. And so keep in mind, you know, these are lawyers that have solo practices, they’re in the mid market, they’re at large firms, but they all have the title Eubank. They’re all they’re all looking, you know, they all have to have their own books of business, they all have to go out and produce, if they want to have the control and freedom that that comes with, you know, dictating how you’re going to run your career, right, not being handed work by 345 other other partners, you know, for the rest of your life. So what kind of tips would you give to them about business development, prospecting, marketing, social media, things that you’ve learned in your your many years doing this?


Steve Hamburg  [24:23]

Well, even more broadly running a business and make it a habit, but do that. So I mentor a lot of aspiring entrepreneurs and entrepreneurs. And in my very first meeting I have with each and every individual. My first question is I ask if they’re married, and if they’re not married, if they have a significant other. And the reason why I asked that is, if you’re aspiring to have your own practice, for example, your own firm, you’re gonna have to be married to that venture. And if your spouse or significant other is not fully supportive of that, then as I’ve seen, in my personal firsthand experience, there’s very likely going to be a divorce, it’s either going to be a divorce from the venture you want to pursue your business, or from your significant other or your spouse. So that’s always the first question that I asked everybody. So if you’re embarking upon it, or if you’re in during some challenging times, and you find it’s having a strain on your relationship, that’s an incredibly important scenario to reflect upon. Because the last thing you need, trying to grow your practice is the unfortunate distraction of a personal relationship starting to deteriorate starting to erode. So that’s a big one. I know I mentioned, you know, my favorite quote, it’s one of my favorite quotes. If you can’t work with your friends, you can’t work with anybody. But another one that I really appreciate, is luck favors those who work the hardest. So as you know, a person who runs a practice sole practitioner, you know, you being the one and only or the person in charge, you’re going to be the catch all for everything. And you need to be willing and committed to put in the effort, the hours, the resources, by for example, when I left the lawyer, I left the lawyer with a nice six figure paying job, married with three children under the age of five. And I was committed to, you know, making it work. And as I’m sure you can appreciate, and understand I, I’ve worked easily 20 plus hours a day, six to seven days a week for probably the first seven or eight years. So it’s just very important that you’re committed, you’re willing to put in that time. And that effort. And then aside from that, as I even mentioned earlier, in our conversation, I had an enormous fear of selling and use the VA helped me understand that that’s actually a very common issue that a lot of business owners and in people high up in organizations have. And I would just tell you that the more that you establish a structure and a process, whether you need to engage the services of Steve or not, the more structure and process you have around selling, and the more that you commit yourself and execute based on that process, that structure that approach, the more comfortable you’re going to be with selling and obviously, you can’t have a viable business if you’re unable to close new business. So you know, as Steve mentioned, in terms of prospecting, and marketing, and networking, those are all key building blocks, to again, you know, establishing a viable practice. And if you have fear, you know, you have to do what you can to overcome that. And then most importantly, you have to execute and engage in as much sales and marketing activity as you possibly can.


Steve Fretzin  [28:06]

And, you know, it’s interesting, Steve, the the people that I used to look forward to training, were the ones that were the outgoing, extroverted, you know, glad handers because they had the personality for sales, right? They the personality go out. And I used to, you know, sort of dread that I’d have to work with someone who is more introverted or more intellectual, more compliant, and just how they handle things risk averse, etc. And I’m not saying it’s the opposite today. But I feel like with process, you know, we can take someone that is uncomfortable with business development or sales, and give them a structure to work to start to break down those walls and those barriers, and the people that are the Glen hander lampshade on the head party, folks, I can say, Hey, quit, quit, be in that crazy person. That’s annoying everyone and let’s come back down to earth. And let’s learn how to behave and in use structure because it’s actually going to end up saving you a lot of time and energy, because you’re not just all over the place. You’re you’re actually following a structure.


Steve Hamburg  [29:06]

It’s funny you say that because even today, I would definitely classify myself as an introvert. But when I engaged you, I was a huge introvert. I had huge discomfort of fear, immersing myself in environments and settings where I didn’t know anybody, for example, networking. But obviously, you know, I was able to overcome that. But again, even today, I would categorize myself as as an introvert. And actually, that reminds me someone asked me years ago, you know, what is your definition of an entrepreneur? And I don’t know if I’m plagiarizing or not. I still think that this was my unique response. I said, to be a successful entrepreneur, you need to be willing to subject yourself to what makes you the most uncomfortable and thrive. And networking was scores definitely, within that category, and I will tell you that I would literally get sweat all over my body just before, you know, immersing myself in some kind of a networking environment, but then also I did quite a bit of public speaking. And I would always get very nervous. I mean, I’ve spoken in front of hundreds, close to 1000 people, you know, in an engagement, and for many years, I would get so nervous because again, that introverted nature of mind, but, but that’s, that’s a big one to really be cognizant of, don’t shy away from things that are making you uncomfortable, dig in, you know, headfirst and, and just make the best out of it. Right, do the best that you can.


Steve Fretzin  [30:45]

So I think it’s just a combination of, of, I’m just kind of summarizing everything, but you know, work ethic, support process, and just continuing to be consistent in your performance and in your desire to accomplish something to get your dream, to go after your dream, etc. And, you know, you’ve you’ve done this now on a number of businesses where you’ve, you’ve gone after it and hit them hit the mark. And now you get to kind of make decisions about how you want to spend, you know, you’re not an old dude. I mean, you’re, you’re my age. So, you know, you’ve got time to kind of come up with what’s the next, you know, what’s the next thing for Steve Hamburg?


Steve Hamburg  [31:21]

Yeah, that’s right. And you know, now I have the luxury of really trying to focus on things that I’m passionate about that I’m really interested in maximizing whatever effort I exert, to be performed towards something I’m really passionate about, and that I really enjoy. You know, before, yes, I would engage in a lot of activities that were essential and being successful that I wasn’t necessarily very excited about. But again, as I alluded to earlier, being that, you know, business owner, that leader of the practice, you’re the catch all. So you know, a lot of times, that means you need to do what maybe others don’t want to do, they can’t do. Yes, now I’m afforded that amazing luxury, where I can really focus on things that I enjoy. And then secondly, as I alluded to, with the philanthropic math tutoring company, I can also focus a lot of my efforts on philanthropic activity as well, which is important to me.


Steve Fretzin  [32:17]

Wonderful, wonderful. Well, this was this was, I would say, moderate love fest, we might have to have to have some drinks and dinner together for the for the full of love fest. But listen, I think the most important thing is that we, we share an experience together, we have a great friendship. And it’s, it’s, it’s a great story to share. I mean, not just because we were in it together, but because I think you you sort of are a great example of what can happen when someone puts their mind to something and and seeks help to not just trying to muscle through it. But you actually sought out help and realize that we would be a great fit. And I’m so grateful that we were, it’s been just an amazing adventure with you the last God or going on 15 years or something like that.


Steve Hamburg  [32:58]

Yeah, just to build off of what you said, I think that one of the biggest recipes for failure is ego. And to your point, I was ready and willing to embrace the opportunity to get outside help, obviously, for you. And I have seen a lot of aspiring entrepreneurs fail because of, you know, excessively large egos, and that precludes them from being successful. So yeah, you know, let your guard down and get that help and support. And that includes my wife, you know, as I mentioned before, you know, a lot of times you either have to be married to your venture or your significant other your spouse, I was fortunate that I could add my two wives, if you will. But yeah, you have to let that guard down, recognize where your opportunities for development exist and get the help that you need.


Steve Fretzin  [33:51]

Yeah. And I’m not opposed to it either. I’ve got a number of people that I count on for advice and coaching and things it’s not just for, you know, for one person it’s for, it’s for everybody that’s interested in growth and then improving on what you may already have. So Steve, with that, we’re going to wrap it up I just want to tell you again, how much I appreciate your time and talking to my audience and just sharing our story together and I just appreciate you and looking forward to getting together with you soon on a personal level.


Steve Hamburg  [34:18]

Absolutely. Again, thanks a lot for inviting me to participate as a lot of fun.


Steve Fretzin  [34:22]

Yeah, very cool. And this Steve’s first podcast so he we broke his cherry here folks, I probably shouldn’t have said that. Anyway, listen, I hope you got some good takeaways, some good ideas today from our show. And again, it’s all about being that lawyer someone who is competent, organized and a skilled Rainmaker. Be safe be well, we’ll talk again soon.


Narrator  [34:44]

Thanks for listening to be that lawyer. Life changing strategies and resources for growing a successful law practice. Visit Steve’s website For additional information, and to stay up to date on the latest legal business development and marketing trends for more information and important links about today’s episode check out today’s show notes