In this episode, Steve Fretzin and Sue Kirchner discuss:
- The role of personal and firm branding in professional services
- Differentiation strategies in a competitive legal marketplace
- The evolving dynamics between name-based and value-based branding
- Branding’s impact on mergers, acquisitions, and business longevity
Key Takeaways:
- Law firms that remove individual names from their brand and adopt a more strategic, memorable identity are better positioned for scalability, talent acquisition, and potential future sale or merger.
- Before spending on marketing, professional service firms must first define their brand strategy by clarifying their core values, audience, messaging, and differentiators to ensure efforts resonate and generate ROI.
- In a saturated legal market, individual lawyers must actively build personal brands—often rooted in authentic personality traits or interests—to stand out and create emotional connections that drive client decisions.
- During mergers and acquisitions, brand strategy is essential at every stage—from making the firm attractive pre-sale, to managing messaging consistency on day one, to ensuring smooth internal integration post-deal.
“The best you can do is to have your messaging and your actions best reflect what you want them to take away from your brand.” — Sue Kirchner
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About Sue Kirchner: For over 25 years, Sue Kirchner, Founder of Brand Strong Marketing—a brand strategy consulting firm—has helped thriving businesses create Wow! brands, allowing them to scale faster, easier, and more successfully.
Her proven Brand Strong Methodology has enabled organizations to attract the right customers and employees, enter new markets successfully, create an amazing customer experience, and increase sales to consistently take the business to the next level.
She is also the host of The Turbo Branding Show, a podcast and video series designed to help Founders and CEOs of thriving businesses gain the insights and inspiration they need to ignite growth by leveraging their brand.
Connect with Sue Kirchner:
Website: https://brandstrongmarketing.com/
Show: The Turbo Branding Show: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-turbo-branding-show/id1771868942
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/suekirchner/ & https://www.linkedin.com/company/brand-strong-marketing/
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/BrandStrongMarketing
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/brandstrongmarketing/
Connect with Steve Fretzin:
LinkedIn: Steve Fretzin
Twitter: @stevefretzin
Instagram: @fretzinsteve
Facebook: Fretzin, Inc.
Website: Fretzin.com
Email: [email protected]
Book: Legal Business Development Isn’t Rocket Science and more!
YouTube: Steve Fretzin
Call Steve directly at 847-602-6911
Audio production by Turnkey Podcast Productions. You’re the expert. Your podcast will prove it.
FULL TRANSCRIPT
Steve Fretzin [00:00]
Hey there. It’s Steve Fretzin, and I’ve got something big for you. If you’re a lawyer who’s serious about building your book of business, I’m most going to be that lawyer. Live on July 24 it’s a virtual event where the legal industry’s top rainmakers will be there to share real world secrets to their success. Sign up now at fretzin.com/events and lock in your spot today. Seats are limited, so don’t wait.
Narrator [00:28]
You’re listening to be that lawyer, life changing strategies and resources for growing a successful law practice. Each episode, your host, author and lawyer coach, Steve Fretzin, will take a deeper dive, helping you grow your law practice in less time with greater results. Now here’s your host, Steve Fretzin.
Steve Fretzin [00:51]
Hey everybody, Steve Fretzin, here and welcome back to the be that lawyer podcast. Now, notice I said, be that lawyer. I didn’t say be that lawyer. With Fretzin, Sue you and I are going to talk about that in a little bit, absolutely little switcheroo on the name and why and why we’re doing it, why and why, most importantly, and why. Hey everybody, I’m so happy you’re here. We have a lot to cover today. Sue is my new friend, and we are going to talk a lot about branding and marketing and helping you to get your personal brand built. But we would not be the be that lawyer podcast, if we didn’t start off with our wonderful quote of the show. It is by Marty Neumeier, and it is your brand is not what you say it is. It’s what they say. It is, Sue. Welcome to the show and tell us a little bit about that quote and why that is meaningful to you.
Sue Kirchner [01:34]
Yeah, no. First of all, thank you so much for having me, Steve. I’m excited to be talking to you. It’s always fun. I chose that quote because that’s something that I talk to my clients about frequently, is that the brand resides in the minds of your stakeholders. You do not own it. The best you can do is to have your messaging and your actions best reflect what you want them to take away from your brand. So that’s something that I work on with my clients, is, hey, you can tell me what the brand is, but when I go talk to your clients, nine times out of 10, they may say something different.
Steve Fretzin [02:07]
Yeah. And does that coincide then a little bit with either you create the brand you want, or others will do it for you. And then I think that’s meant in a negative way.
Sue Kirchner [02:15]
Yes, that is so another quote which is not attributed to anybody, it’s what I say all the time is, if you don’t define yourself, someone else will, there you go. Because we all have this innate need that when we meet someone or we interact with a company, it’s for us to recall it. We have to slot them somewhere in our head. And so we come up with the brand, we come up with this impression, and that ultimately ends up being the brand or the positioning or the impression that people have about you or your organization, and if they had an experience that was not maybe what you wanted them to have, or if you didn’t communicate accurately or clearly enough to them what you stand for, they’re going to make something up. Yeah, and you might not like it, right? Might not like it.
Steve Fretzin [02:58]
Yeah. Hey everybody. So you’re listening to my new friend and marketing expert, Sue Kirchner turbo brand marketing show host and also president of brand strong marketing, give us a little bit of background on you and how you came to be in the marketing space and working with lawyers.
Sue Kirchner [03:14]
Absolutely. So I started out, not traditionally, with lawyers, but right out school, started working with Motorola, which was not a marketing company. So I learned a lot in the cell phone industry, as it was booming, how to start working with consumers and impressions and launching practically a new product, even though the company had been around for a while. But more importantly, because I grew up in Latin America, I was the only person who spoke Spanish in the marketing department at that time, I got to do everything. I got to do PR I got to do brand building. I got to do, you know, General Communications and events. And I loved the branding piece of that. I just absolutely loved the idea of, how do you convince someone to trust you and to work with you, through emotion, through messaging and things like that. So over time, I had a consulting business with a couple partners where we focused on branding. I tried to build my own brand with an e commerce Store at one point when my kids were little and I wasn’t able to travel as much anymore, and then ultimately came back to consulting and really everything that I had learned about social media driving traffic online. How do you position yourself? How do you touch people emotionally so that they want to work with you and stay loyal with you? All of that culminated into brand, strong marketing, which is where I’m at now. And yeah, that’s worked with a variety of lawyers over the time too, in terms of helping them figure out, well, what is their brand and how do they position themselves, and really, just accurately, what promise Are you making to the people that you’re working with, whether it’s employees or whether it’s clients, and how they’re going to be treated?
Steve Fretzin [04:51]
Yeah, and it seems like there’s a shift in the market now, maybe more now than ever, that firms that traditionally would have three or four names attached. To their brand now moving to names that are more easily and memorable and readable and usable in their marketing. Why do you see that happening? And what’s the point?
Sue Kirchner [05:10]
Couple different reasons, if you’re a lot of it has to do with strategy. So if you want this entity that you’re building your firm to last beyond the partners if you potentially want to sell it at a certain point, it’s easier to do if there are not personal names mixed in with the brand of the organization. But as you talked about, it’s very hard to cut through clutter and noise in today’s environment, having a shorter maybe a name that reflects more about what your firm or what your practice is focusing on, that helps you be a little bit more memorable. But the other reason is, as you grow as a firm, the initial partners are probably not going to be interacting with clients, or even, you know, additional staff that is brought on to the firm. So there becomes a challenge in how do you take the personalities of the founding partners and infuse that to become the culture of the firm? And a lot of times organizations, they just don’t bother to do that, and then you end up being kind of adrift in terms of culture or attracting top talent, you know, to come work at the firm.
Steve Fretzin [06:18]
Yeah. Is it tough for them to take ego out of it?
Sue Kirchner [06:20]
Very tough.
Steve Fretzin [06:22]
You had to convert some people over. It’s not.
Sue Kirchner [06:25]
Yeah, it’s very tough. I’ve had some very difficult conversation sitting at a table and saying, I’m sorry, but it’s not about you.
Steve Fretzin [06:32]
Yeah, yeah. Wow, yeah. I know that’s difficult. So well, let me go back to the beginning. So my company originally was called sales, resulting, that’s when I worked in over 50 industries with entrepreneurs. Got pulled into legal, 2007 eight with the recession, decided that sales results was a very scary name for them. You know, our dandelion lawyer friends, and so I changed it to Fretzin, and that’s it. And fret, since me frets and the brand and I was sort of the business, so I did that. Then I had some great marketing branding people come in, they came up with like, what does it all mean? What am I doing? What does it represent? Well, be that lawyer. That’s what I’m doing. That’s what I’m all about. That brand has grown so much and so but it was be that lawyer with Fretzin, and that’s the logo, you know, behind me, if you look on my banner behind me, my name is front and center. Now I’m moving to just be that lawyer, talk to me about why I’m doing that, why others should consider that as well.
Sue Kirchner [07:25]
Yeah, so when you’re starting out, you are the brand, right? You know, when you’re selling to larger organizations, they want to know that they’re working with a company, or at least back in the day, you know, companies wanted to know that they’re working with a company, and not just you. I can’t tell you, when I was on my own as a solopreneur doing brand strategy, I’ve had a couple larger clients. I couldn’t work with them because they would say, Well, what if you got hit by a bus tomorrow? Then we’re going to lose all the work that we’ve done with you, and you won’t be able to help us. They have this sense of security that they need to work with a larger organization. So that’s, you know, potentially, why. You know, back in the 90s, early, 2000s everybody went the naming route of a company. But then you kind of realize that wait, especially in service businesses, and if it’s just you, they’re really just working with me, so why not just build a brand around your name? Because the brand is going to be your personality, it’s your core values, it’s the way you show up, it’s how you talk to people. But then again, as you grow and you start to develop another brand name, like you had be that lawyer with Fretzin, it starts to take on an entity of its own right. It starts to develop a characteristic, or core values that are not necessarily associated with you. They’re more associated with maybe the message, or they’re associated with the process that you’re delivering your consulting work or or, you know, the type of service that you’re doing. So and then again, it goes back to, hey, do you want to flip this? Do you want to sell it? Do you want to start bringing on a bunch of employees and turn this into a bigger organization? And if that’s the case, then it starts to look more attractive to get your name out of it. So I worked with a gentleman. This is probably 15 years ago. He built this amazing consulting research practice in the medical field, and it has had his name in it, and when he sold it, he lost the rights to his name to still keep working in the industry, and it was devastating to him so.
Steve Fretzin [09:18]
I see that. So then for professional services firms. I mean, maybe this is touching back on what we’ve already covered, but I’m in the business development game, and the marketing and branding sometimes get confused, and I’m not a branding expert like you are. However, when I observe something that doesn’t seem right, I you know, Jen, tend to put my two cents in. But why is it so important for professional service firms to have that brand and to really think about and strategize about what their brand is.
Sue Kirchner [09:45]
Yeah, couple different reasons. So the first and most important reason is, in a service industry, you’re selling something intangible, right? You are absolutely selling something that it’s not a product that you can touch, feel, smell, kick and see whether. It’s going to fit your needs. It’s all about a promise. It’s all about saying, hey, trust me that I can solve this problem for you, or I can do this service for you. And so you have to be able to communicate incredibly well, and you have to have your messaging build trust that the client is going to you know, absolutely receive the experience that you’re promising them. So one of my favorite books is selling the invisible. By Harry Beckwith, yeah, that was all about service based businesses, is you’re selling something that people can’t see. So how do you make it tangible? And that’s through stories. It’s through messaging. It’s through word of mouth. So that’s why, for service based businesses, it’s absolutely essential that you get a handle on. Well, what is that brand and what is the promise that we’re trying to make to our clients so they trust us to work with us. And then, as we talked about earlier with the quotes, again, if you don’t focus on your brand, someone else may define it for you. It could be a competitor. It could be a disgruntled client. They could be the loudest voice out there talking about your firm. So it’s very important that you get a handle on that, and it’s also important for recruiting. So it’s one of those things where, if you say, our firm stands for this, we are the best at this particular practice area, or we treat our employees the best. That’s something worth mentioning.
Steve Fretzin [11:21]
If you’re like, yeah, like, rated best place to work in this city or whatever, yeah.
Sue Kirchner [11:26]
Absolutely, then you’ll start to attract better talent than others or other firms that nobody’s heard of or that may have bad reviews out there. So it’s important for service firms to really focus on that, and it keeps you as you start to grow. I love talking about the analogy of the brand as being kind of like your guiding light. It’s where you’re going. It’s where you want to go as a firm. It keeps you from being distracted by shiny objects, where people come and say, Hey, could you do this for me? Or, oh, you know, I love working with you. Would you be able to do this? And it starts to take you off in directions that maybe are not part of your growth a goal of where you want the firm to be, and suddenly your growth stalls, or you make mistakes, or you lose a lot of money on bets that you know become risky and weren’t where you needed to go to achieve your growth goals.
Steve Fretzin [12:14]
Yeah, so is it if somebody’s listening to this and they’re saying, You know what, I need an overhaul on my brand. I’m doing random acts of marketing. I’m not really sure where I stand in the marketplace. How do they how would you work with them to is it brand first and then marketing based on the brand and like, how do you navigate all of the different ins and outs of those two words and what they all mean?
Sue Kirchner [12:36]
Yeah, absolutely, I have I created after a while, because it’s great that you’re asking me this question. Because people always ask me, well, where well, where do you play? And so I created a graphic about the marketing continuum. And half of the big, important pieces about marketing and branding are all before you spend money on marketing. And that’s where I play, which is why I work very well with marketing agencies, because I do that upfront strategic work to figure out, who are you? What are your core, you know, core values, if you don’t have that defined already, what are your core competencies? Who is your ideal target market, who absolutely just loves what you do for them? And what are your key messages? And then, how’s the experience? How are you differentiating yourself and living up to the promise you’re making with your brand, so that clients walk away being able to say what you want them to say so, so ideal in that upfront piece that helps you get all of your ducks in a row, get your strategy in a row. It’s the foundational part of your messaging that then you can go out and start doing the marketing, and you won’t lose money or be inaccurate or attract the wrong type of customer. Your messaging is too vague. It’s too general. It’s not appealing to the right person.
Steve Fretzin [13:43]
Got it. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. Hey, pi attorneys, you’re serious about scaling your firm. There’s one event you can’t afford to miss, Pim con 2025 happening October 5 through the eighth at the Phoenician resort in Scottsdale, Arizona. Pimcon isn’t your average legal conference. It’s an experience. Learn how to take your firm from good to go with some of the biggest trailblazers in the PI space, including yours truly, as we share our elite marketing and brand building strategies. Tickets on sale [email protected] that’s p i m, c o n.org, or just hit the link in the show notes. Your climb to the top starts at PIM con 2025 let’s go from good to go. Hey everybody, it’s Steve Fretzin as the you know, I’m the host of the be that lawyer podcast, and if you’re serious about growing your law practice, let’s talk. I’ve coached hundreds of attorneys to build bigger books of business without selling, chasing or wasting time. This isn’t a sales pitch, it’s a real 30 minute strategy session to explore what’s possible for you in your practice. Just head over to fretzin.com and grab a time that works for you. And let’s make this your breakout year. And how does. Someone to a firm, sort of figure out their differentiator, figure out their brand, and there’s just, there’s so it’s such a crowded marketplace. I mean, you look at personal injury, you look at family law, you look at a number of these areas where it’s just, they’re just competitors to your left, right and behind you. How does someone come up with what they should be putting out in front that’s going to separate them from the pack?
Sue Kirchner [15:23]
Yeah. Well, there’s a couple things. There’s number one, when you’re trying to figure out what your brand is, the pithy answer is, ask, right? You go out and you talk to your clients, you talk to your maybe referral partners and stakeholders, your employees, and you ask, what? Who are we? What do we do? Great, you know, how are we delivering something different to our customers. So you first establish that, and then you take a look at that and say, Well, gosh, is that different enough in the marketplace? Or is that who we want to be 510, years from now? Or do we think we can do more? We could be better? So that’s when you start looking at, well, what is your vision? What is where do you want to go? Who do you want to serve? What practices or service lines do you want to add to your firm? And then you say, All right, well, now that we know where we want to go, what needs to change? Is it the messaging? Do we need to start getting much more consistent and harder hitting on what our message is about, how we want to, you know, position ourselves in the marketplace, or is it our experience that we need to, you know, look at but for a lot of law firms, there’s a couple different ways that you can differentiate and position yourself. Number one is just, what type of law do you practice, right? Or, you know, which types of expertise and skills do you have within your practice? So that’s the first one. The second is you can absolutely differentiate on service or accessibility. So are you easy to communicate with? Does someone always answer the phone when they call your firm? And then do you have access to the partners? A lot of times, you know, people are attracted to a law firm thinking they’re going to work with one of these partners, and instead, never get to talk to someone beyond a junior staff level or paralegal and things like that. So you can differentiate based on access and service. You can also strong community connections is another way to differentiate yourself. So are you the real estate lawyer in this geographic area? And you know, because of that, you’re very active in the community, so that everyone refers you, and you’re you’re very visible, so you know, and it’s one of those where maybe it’s your strategic partnerships too. That helps you differentiate your law firm. So we are aligned with this accounting firm, or we are aligned with this general consulting firm, and that’s what differentiates us, because we always get called for specific types of challenges, problems industry experience those kinds of things.
Steve Fretzin [17:37]
Yeah, I always try to think about a litmus test of number one, when you’re talking about differentiators. Number one, is it something people no one else is saying, right? If everyone’s saying, we provide great service, and you’re going to throw your hat into the ring and say, Hey, by the way, everybody, we also provide great service. Like, that’s out, like, that’s not unique, that’s not memorable, that’s not a differentiator. The second thing is, let’s say you do come up with something. Is it something people care about. Is it something that is meaningful to them? Like you mentioned, responsiveness in some areas that’s much more important than others, that may be, like, the number one thing that they care about. And then the third is like, is it something that you can play out long term, or is it something that you can really expand on and really reuse and repurpose and put it out there in a variety of ways. Yeah, anything to add on that? I mean that we’ve covered this pretty well.
Sue Kirchner [18:24]
Absolutely, absolutely. It’s, again, put yourself in the client shoes and say, what would they want as part of this process? It could just be communication. It could just be that they hire you. You go off and do some things, no one hears from you for weeks, months, days, whatever it is, and then all of a sudden, you come back and they’re like, Well, wait, I was expecting touch points. I was expecting something in between there. So you need to put yourself in your customer’s shoes to see what they appreciate and what’s relevant, because that’s definitely a way to, you know, differentiate yourself. But another thing is to keep in mind, especially in service businesses like law firms, ultimately, at the end of the day, people will hire you because they like the lawyer they’re talking to, or they like the person who was in the meeting with them for, you know, the new business development and landing the client. So you have to stop and consider that I was talking to a gentleman that works for a law firm, mid size law firm, and they do have more of a, I don’t want to say generic, but they have a name that is not the name partners, right? And so I was asking him, and I’m like, so where’s the brand equity, right? Where what matters more to the client when they’re trying to decide which, you know, law firm to hire for their particular challenge? And he was saying, he goes, ultimately, at the end of the day, it’s the lawyer he goes. But what the brand name of the firm provides is trust and validity and reputation. And so what he was saying is, you know, he’s like, I always talk about how great the firm is and what our core values and mission and promise are, he goes but then ultimately, at the end of the day, I know that. They’re hiring me because of me, and so I have to be a great reflection of what the brand of the entire organization is supposed to be.
Steve Fretzin [20:06]
But I mean, that leads me to kind of a follow up question, which is all right, so there’s someone listening to this right now that’s at, let’s just make up and say a mid market firm in the M and a space, okay? And the firm has their brand, right? And it’s a good brand. People know it. People like it. They’re known as the Midwest, you know, go place to go for reminisce. Okay, yeah. Now, while that’s happening, the individual lawyer is out hustling and trying to make it rain and trying to build a business. Are they leveraging strictly the brand of the firm, or, and I think this goes to what you’re kind of going to or are they now building their own brand that might be actually different, quite different than the firm’s brand.
Sue Kirchner [20:47]
They should be leveraging, if they are associated with the firm, they should be leveraging the firm brand, right? So they should definitely be leveraging the firm brand in terms of, this is our expertise. This is, you know, these are our core values. This is how we serve our customers. This is our process. This is our communication. However, you’re going to be working with me day to day, so I’m going to tell you about me, but that is, although it’s the reason the client will probably choose to work with this firm versus another, is they liked that particular lawyer, yeah, but they still are taking the chance. They still are trusting because of the firm’s brand name. So but I had a individual lawyer who he was in a VISTAs group I was in a long time ago, and he was talking about the fact that he goes, Yeah, he goes, I get an opportunity to talk to people because of the brand of my firm. He goes, but then I get clients, because he personally was branding himself as the hockey guy. He was a hockey coach. Okay, going to hockey games. He played hockey. He’s like, so when I’m at my kids hockey game, or when I’m out at a networking event or things like that, I start talking about, hey, I’m the hockey lawyer. I’m, you know, and you attract the type of people then that find that intriguing, or who have the same affinity for hockey. So he’s like, so my firm is not the hockey firm he goes, but I’ve already talked about that. You know, the fact that my firm has a well known, established brand, I get a chance to have a conversation, but then they’ll hire me because they feel an affinity that if they’re working with me personally, we’re going to talk about hockey.
Steve Fretzin [22:22]
Yeah, and the not opposite, but a different element of that is a firm maybe doesn’t have a great brand, or maybe has no brand, like they’re new in a market, should then a lawyer focus on the brand of that lawyer and getting out there and building up the personal name brand versus the firm brand?
Sue Kirchner [22:41]
Yeah, if the firm has almost no equity, like you said, has no awareness, things like that, then yes, it’s the individual lawyer can talk about what they want, maybe the firm brand to be, but it’s still going to be about the personal brand of that particular lawyer dealing with the client, because it’s they’re hiring them. There’s nothing for the lawyer to hang their hat on yet, but over time, that should be a strategic discussion at the firm is all right, we’ve got all these individual lawyers out there who were building a personal brand because we did not have the organizational one that was strong enough yet. But now ties have you know, the tide has changed, and over time, let’s take a look at these individual lawyers and figure out, all right, well, what’s common amongst everyone, and how do we start to roll that into the brand and the culture of the firm itself?
Steve Fretzin [23:27]
Yeah, because I think there’s mid market or there’s firms that are trying to go into new markets, to take the brand that they have in St Louis and move it to Chicago and open up an office and try to, like, get the same brand in Chicago is, and I think it’s very challenging to do.
Sue Kirchner [23:44]
It is challenging. Yeah, it is very challenging. And it takes, takes an awful lot of communication internally if you want to have a consistent brand experience in St Louis, as you do in Chicago. Well, then the managing partner in St Louis needs to be working with the managing partner in Chicago and saying, This is how we do things, what we talk about, here’s how we market ourselves. These are our messages. Here’s the processes we use, here’s how we hire. It’s all about consistency. Then, if you’re trying to extend the brand from one location to another.
Steve Fretzin [24:17]
Well and the best example of that was our episode 500 with John Morgan, you know, having 1000 attorneys in all these cities, all singing the same song, all with the same brand, and opening up all these new markets. And it’s got to be done the John Morgan way, because that’s the right way. Well, why is it the right way? Well, because he figured out the secret sauce, right? So, yeah. So I think that’s great insight. Let’s sort of wrap up. Last thing I want to kind of ask is, what role then, does branding play in mergers and acquisitions among firms? I mean, obviously, you know, I don’t know if I’m going to, you know, do something with be that lawyer, whether it’s just me, it could be something that expands. I’m right that’s on the fence, but there’s clearly a value to branding in how that helps. You, you know, acquire, and maybe even eventually, you know, sell what you have to a large organization. A lot of that gobbling up happening in the in the marketplace.
Sue Kirchner [25:09]
Right? Absolutely. So branding plays a big role along almost every step, pre post and during the merger, right? So, pre merger, a firm that’s acquiring needs to kind of have a brand about how they’re going to be a great buyer, right? So the whereas this, whoever is being acquired, also has to figure out, is my brand attractive enough to attract someone to buy us, right? So the buyer also has to say, You know what, we are excellent at acquisitions. We do a great job. You know, we’re not going to come in and destroy everything that you’ve already created. Already created and things like that. So there has to be brands on both sides that are attractive to each other for the merger and acquisition conversation to move forward. So having a strong brand is is essential during the actual merger and acquisition the brand is important because there needs to be a lot of communication to all the different stakeholders, whether that’s clients employees, who are being acquired. And this is the part that I found, whether it’s law firms or any other company, the people component gets ignored in mergers and acquisitions. You may be acquiring a firm because you want access to their clients, or you want access to an expertise of an employee that you have in your firm, but then you don’t bother to court them, so to speak. Tell them why you’re doing this acquisition, how the firm is going to be bigger and better because of this transaction that’s happening, how they the people that are coming in and being acquired to the firm, how they’re going to play an essential role in the growth of the firm going forward. That gets ignored and then day one communications, how do you answer the phone on day one? You know, it’s, you don’t want there to be any confusion in messaging, or, you know, client communications, or things like that, that has to be set out as a strategy on day one. And then post M and A, it’s serving it’s talking to clients. It’s talking to employees, and saying, How are we doing? How are things going? Are you feeling welcome here? Do we need to do any onboarding? Do we need to have some kind of group dynamic where you get to know the, you know, the new employees that you’re working with, something that allows this transaction to happen more seamlessly from a change management standpoint?
Steve Fretzin [27:18]
Yeah, really awesome. And, I mean, I guess a concern that someone might have is like, if they built up a brand with 20 lawyers and they’re just well known in a marketplace, and then when they get acquired like that, does that brand just go away, because the bigger entity is absorbing it? And then it’s like, I mean, I helped it. Helped with the acquisition, I guess. But then it’s like, it’s gone right?
Sue Kirchner [27:38]
Yeah, it depends on the strategy. I mean, the firm that’s acquiring, if the brand equity of who they’re acquiring is so strong, I would advise to really think about, do you have a sub brand? Do you keep that name, or do you keep that name for like, a period of time? Maybe it’s 12 months. Maybe it’s 18 months. Is you allow? But you start to do things like, this is firm. This is in the consumer market, mostly, but it’s like you say, Well, this is Company X by Company Y, or, you know, things like that, where you try and tie the two names together for a transition type period, yeah. But then essentially, one of them goes away, and you try and do as much as you can to transfer the positive equity to the acquiring firm. But otherwise, there’s, there are situations where you may decide that you know what, we’re still going to operate under two names. We just own them where, and we align ourselves as as we we go to market as being aligned or partners, or sister firms or brother firms, as opposed to completely absolving that brand equity that was so positive.
Steve Fretzin [28:39]
Well, just, I mean, such a wealth of information, Sue, I appreciate that there’s a something I’d like to ask you, what’s Sue’s big mistake?
Sue Kirchner [28:46]
My big mistake is, you know, building off of what you talked about earlier, is this whole personal versus brand name, right? So I started out with when I, you know, really said, All right, I’m going to start this brand consulting company. I’ve got years of experience. I think I might want to sell it at some point. And so I started the brand, strong marketing, brand name, but over time, I realized, no, I don’t actually want a big build, a big, giant agency or firm. It’s me. It’s my expertise. I love doing the work, so I am the brand, so that I have started shifting all of my marketing to be into more of my name. And so I go back, and I’m like, I wish I would have done my website differently on day one. I wish I would have not spent so much money on, you know, the brand and things like that. But I’ve recovered, and I’m able to take whatever leverage equity that I had in brain strong marketing and have really pulled it into my supernatural.
Steve Fretzin [29:44]
Yeah, and it’s interesting, like I started out in one place thinking, you know, I’m going to own the world and I’m going to sell this for billions of dollars. Had a, you know, similar sort of realization that I just really enjoy working on my own and working with individuals and getting results through them. And now. I’m back on the other side where, you know what, I’m building a brand that actually may be interesting to someone, you know, maybe not today and but in the next five to 10 years, you know, to bring in someone that might want to, you know, continue on what I’ve started. And I don’t think I’ll ever retire like I just am one of those people that I think I may slow down and travel more, but ultimately, I just love what I do too much to stop. I think there’s a lot of people that that have found that that joy, as I have. So, you know, we just come in full circle. It happens.
Sue Kirchner [30:27]
It is. It absolutely comes through thicker and, you know, and it’s not, you know, I said, I wish I would have had some of that money, but really, it’s not a mistake, because it depends on the strategy that you’re going for with your growth and your business model at the time, and that shift and it changes.
Steve Fretzin [30:41]
Yeah, and what you want and how you mature. Like, I mean, I said this on another, another podcast, where, you know, I used to look at all the big mansions, and I used to look at all the, you know, $200,000 cars and all this stuff, and think, like, that’s my future. Like, that’s what it means to be successful. That’s what everyone that succeeds. Those people are riddled with debt, those people are unhappy because they have things, but they don’t have what I consider happiness, which is health, family, passion, success in business, things that die, that you know, leaving a legacy to me, that it, you know, and yes, security, you want to have money, right, just so you’re not living on the street. But ultimately, you know, I think just, it’s a just because I think just we, as we mature, we realize everyone’s got a different definition of what’s important to them.
Sue Kirchner [31:27]
Absolutely. And I think as you mature, you start to self reflect a little bit more, and you figure out, well, what are my core values? Yeah, what? Yeah. Do you want? What are the non negotiables in my life?
Steve Fretzin [31:36]
Yeah, yeah. Sounds like a whole separate show. Sue.
Sue Kirchner [31:38]
It seems like a separate show, but that absolutely starts to drive again, the brand and your business model.
Steve Fretzin [31:44]
Yeah, awesome. Hey, let’s take a moment and thank our friends over at pimcon, running the top PI conference of the year out in Scottsdale, first class, if you want to check that out. And then also, of course, our friend Sonia Palmer, over at law, her podcast, I’d probably introduce you to Sonia. I think you two would hit it off fabulously. And of course, if you haven’t picked up the book, be that lawyer, 101 top Rainmaker, secrets to growing a successful law practice. You want this show at your fingertips with the top advice from John Morgan, John shakota and the 100 other Larry Fretz, for crying out loud, giving his advice from the from beyond. It’s all there. So check that out. On Amazon, we got five star ratings across the board, best seller, all that jazz. Sue. If people want to get in touch with you, you’re brilliant. They want to talk to you about their brand, their marketing. What are the best ways for them to reach you?
Sue Kirchner [32:41]
Thank you. Yeah, you can certainly go to my website, brand, strong marketing, com, or I would go to LinkedIn and look for Sue Kirchner, and I am on there. 24/7 Yup, trying to make sure that I’m connecting with people. So, yeah, that’s the best way.
Steve Fretzin [32:55]
Awesome and everything in the show notes, everybody too. So don’t be shy to check those out and reach out to Sue if you need some help on the other stuff that I don’t do. Thank you so much. This has been wonderful. You’re just so easy to talk to, and you just, you don’t pause for even a second. You know your stuff in and out, which really makes, makes for, I mean, not that that’s a bad thing in an interview, but it certainly demonstrates not only your confidence, but your depth of knowledge and expertise.
Sue Kirchner [33:19]
No, I appreciate it. I appreciate it. And same. Back at you. I had you on my podcast turbo branding show, and we had a fantastic conversation. Yeah, two piece in a pot, right? Yeah. Thank you so much for again, being a guest and allowing me to be a guest.
Steve Fretzin [33:33]
Yeah, wow. That’s called the pod swap. I’m always up for good pod swap. And by the way, shout out to who was it? Tom Swift that introduced us at provisors native. Thank you Tom. And hey, thank you everybody for hanging out with Sue and I for about 30 plus minutes today talking a little bit about what you need to do to get your brand in order. And hopefully you got a bunch of takeaways. As I know I did keep an eye out for you know the social media posts that are going to be coming out about this, but helping you every single week, twice a week, to be that lawyer, confident, organized and a skilled Rainmaker, take care. Everybody. Be safe, be well. We will talk again soon.
Narrator [34:11]
Thanks for listening to be that lawyer, life changing strategies and resources for growing a successful law practice. Visit Steve’s website, fredson.com for additional information and to stay up to date on the latest legal, business development and marketing trends, for more information and important links about today’s episode. Check out today’s show notes.