Susan Ibitz: Being Present in Your Relationships

In this episode, Steve Fretzin and Susan Ibitz discuss:

  • Soft skills are marketable and make you employable.
  • The relationship behind know, like, and trust.
  • Starting soft and inviting questions.
  • Tips about nonverbal communication.

Key Takeaways:

  • If you’re not selling a product, you are selling yourself or your service.
  • If people don’t remember you when you talk, there is a problem. We have two ears and one mouth, use them proportionately.
  • Treat others the way they want to be treated and you will be remembered as remarkable.
  • Gather the baseline information before you jump to solutions or try and fix without understanding the client’s problem.

“In law sales and networking, you establish rapport and you use words, which are more important than the body. Words are be more important because I pay attention. Be present.” —  Susan Ibitz

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Show notes by Podcastologist Chelsea Taylor-Sturkie

Audio production by Turnkey Podcast Productions. You’re the expert. Your podcast will prove it.



lawyers, people, soft skills, teach, networking, questions, susan, studies, listening, calls, talk, body language, behavior, legalese, pay, words, friends, lie, attention, person


Narrator, Susan Ibitz, Steve Fretzin, Jordan Ostroff


Susan Ibitz  [00:00]

You need to build a relationship with people. So when you go into networking when you met someone, if you come in on the selling note, like it says is not going to happen is too aggressive, so I need to know you so you can trust me and you can like me.


Narrator  [00:18]

You’re listening to be that lawyer, life changing strategies and resources for growing a successful law practice. Each episode, your host, author and lawyer coach, Steve Fretzin, will take a deeper dive helping you grow your law practice in less time with greater results. Now, here’s your host, Steve Fretzin.


Steve Fretzin  [00:40]

Hey, everybody, welcome to be that lawyer. As the announcer mentioned. I’m Steve Fretzin. Welcome, welcome. Welcome back. Hopefully, you’ve listened to a few of these. I think we’re in the 150 range now at this point. So listen, if you’re looking to grow your law, practice, if you’re serious about you know, taking control of your career, this show has such great guests. I can’t take credit for myself, I can only take credit for my great guests who are teaching you because they are rainmakers, because they are experts in marketing. They’re experts in time management, they’re experts in in today, we’ve got an amazing guest that’s going to talk about nonverbal communication and reading, you know, reading your audience when you’re out, you know, networking and prospecting. So that’s what this show is all about. It’s all about being that lawyer, someone who’s confident organized in a skilled Rainmaker. Before I introduce Susan, I just want to take a moment to thank our sponsors money, Penny and legalese marketing, money, Penny, because they’re just terrific and answering phones. They’re terrific that live chat on my website, and I’m already getting great messages from people that are checking out my website and wanting to ask some questions. And, and I’m alerted to all of that. And I can engage in that after someone has already been on my website, which was not happening before. And then also legalese, because they are handling a lot of my marketing, they work with a lot of my clients, to just get organized with all the different things of marketing that you don’t want to do that they do it. So let them do it. Let them do what they do best. And you focus on being a great lawyer. And I think it’s a great combination. So the quote of the day today, and Susan actually came up with this quote, and once you hear the quote, and then hear her personality, you understand what she’s, what she’s talking about. Science is sexy, and for lawyers too. And Susan, I bet she is with human behavior lab, the founder and just she’s also improvisers with me and shout out to providers, Susan, how you doing?


Susan Ibitz  [02:30]

Hi, thank you for having me. I hope we didn’t get an A stampede of lawyer outside of the podcast with the phrase.


Steve Fretzin  [02:37]

No, as soon as we mentioned that, that science is sexy. And for lawyers, too. We started to get all these calls in from lawyers that want to be more sexy. I don’t know if that’s the case. I’m just talking. Anyway, you’re you’re a fascinating person with a amazing background. And if you could just take a couple minutes and share how you came to be in your background, because I think people are going to be like, Whoa, this is very different than anyone Steve’s ever had


Susan Ibitz  [02:59]

on before. Well, I am where I am, because I fail. Long story short, I want to be a profiler for the FBI at the age of 24. So we’re studying psychology and sociology to my do my masters and I found out and I’m highly dyslexic. So academic is not going to be for me. 33 years ago, dyslexia was a disability. So I come up with like, Okay, I need Plan B, always you need to learn to do Plan B, and we should teach our kids how to do it. So I went to Europe, I started studying with everyone. And now I’m a profiler and a hostage negotiator. And I use all the that science to help lawyers in sales rep. And for 18 years, I was political consultants. So he always says, if I can put a clown on the White House, I can take you out of jail. Now, wait a


Steve Fretzin  [03:47]

second, you said that you help lawyers and salespeople? And that doesn’t seem right, because lawyers are not salespeople. He said sarcastically Oh, okay. They are


Susan Ibitz  [03:58]

networking cells and lawyers are cell if you’re not selling yourself, you’re selling your services, or you’re selling a product tangible and tangible. So I teach the same while we do is adapt in is like jello, you can do so many things. Behavior is the same. We should teach behavior on kids where they’re five years old to avoid bullying.


Steve Fretzin  [04:20]

Yeah. And so, you know, we lawyers, don’t go into the law to become salespeople. We know that as a as a straight truth. And so I’ve been teaching lawyers what I call sales Free selling for many, many years so that they don’t have to ever feel salesy. They can go out and they can ask questions, they can listen, and you’re going to talk about some of the soft skills that are associated with how to not be a salesman, but to be more of a professional that walks buyers through a buying decision. And part of that is asking questions and and watching their body language listening to their response. And in taking it all in to identify that they’re comfortable, they’re moving forward their interest Did or maybe there’s some discomfort, maybe it’s not going as smoothly as it should? So, first of all, why aren’t we taught the soft skills in high school college like that sounds like nonverbal communication and understanding people would be something that that should be taught. And it’s not.


Susan Ibitz  [05:18]

Actually it’s funny, you mentioned soft skills, there are studies showing that if between hiring somebody who come in from a higher bar and somebody who have high soft skills, the companies are going to go soft skills, like creativity, you need to be created to sell in yourself how you present in a human behavior hacker, some people have computers, I have humans. So I think that even those soft skills and behavior coming from university studies, they don’t think is needed on curriculum. Some universities are slowly adapting, for example, psychologists, lawyers, or therapists, they don’t teach them how to better communicate with others studying by yourself, because I can be reacting to your actions, because you’re aggressive. So I become an aggressive mode, we should be teaching this in kindergarten in high school, and most of all, in high master levels. So you know how to communicate with others, science is sexy, and for lawyers to why, because we can use behavior to better communicate, and that will be a key, a better relationship doesn’t matter what it is.


Steve Fretzin  [06:25]

And you’ve been working with lawyers on a couple different levels. On one level, it’s about networking, and prospecting and getting the business right and helping them just just better understand people. And then on the other side, you’ve been helping lawyers, with juries, and like reading juries, and like figuring out like, you know, who’s gonna, who’s gonna convict or not convict to some degree. So, you know, are those both important skills when it comes to nonverbal communication and reading, reading the audience?


Susan Ibitz  [06:52]

Yes, lawyers, like most of other profession, they’re coming from networking and referrals. If I work with you, like this happened with you, when you’re coaching lawyers, like you need to build a relationship with people. So when you go into networking, when you met someone, if you come in on the selling mode, like he says, is not going to happen is too aggressive. So I need to know you. So you can trust me, and you can like me, if those three factors happen, is we’re gonna go to the second pace, when you’re gonna be referring me, clients, even though I never used your service, because I build a relationship, but you make an impression on me in a networking, I gonna remember you, if people doesn’t remember you, because you’re not present. When you talk, you have a problem. We have two years and a mouth, we need to make more open question like how you doing? How you doing that, why you’re doing that, why you’re doing that? Those are better. People want to talk about themselves, they don’t care about you. So if you’re patient to talk with lawyers, sometime they’re not you’re gonna build a better relationship. Now in jury selection, we use behavior to help lawyers, clients witness an expert to tell the story. Because when you are in a jury, even though if you’re in a divorce case, is about the story how you say it and how to connect with the jury.


Steve Fretzin  [08:12]

Yeah, and going back to the to the first part of that is, we were just talking about questioning. And one of the one of the skills that I’m teaching lawyers on a regular basis is a skill they already have, because they’ve done depositions, and other in other legal types of services that that that involve questioning, and but it’s interesting when it comes to networking. And when it comes to, you know, talking to prospective clients, they don’t ask enough questions, they they charge headfirst into solutions into what’s called a pitch meeting, which involves using your mouth, not your ears. And so I try to slow lawyers down and say, look, it’s okay to make a pitch. It’s okay to solve or to or to sell later. But initially, what you want to do is you want to spend some time upfront diagnosing you want to spend some time upfront, asking open ended questions, and really identify not only what their needs are, but how deep those needs go to the point of maybe pain or fear, or a compelling reason for them to change. And that’s a very easy skill to learn yet not being taught generally, to lawyers, I do but most people are not taught these skills.


Susan Ibitz  [09:23]

So you say perfectly in the beginning, they know how to do their boss, because they need to be aggressive. They have the completely wire and get the truth and to have the best answers. But when they need to translate that to social networking, they need to be softer and they don’t know how to change hats. So the hammer has to do with I need to be softer here in my work and super aggressive. I’m a hostage negotiator I trained hostage negotiators Believe me, I need to put my my my Superman suit so they don’t walk all over me. But I learned when I work with civilians. I need to get my right brain I need to be injured. As you know, on you asking questions, one way to get people interested in doing your pitch is like when I met you, for the first time we talked during your elevator speech. I’m a human behavior hackers and people have computers, I have humans. And people want to ask me questions. And that when they asked me questions is when I have the best opportunity to get my speech. But I need to start softer, like how you doing when you do formally when Oh, I love your Michael Jordan t shirt, did he sign it, I’m going to a personal level, when you feel more comfortable actually, your smile when I asked you, that is a good sign that God I’m getting to you. So we need to teach lawyers that the soft skills that we need to use in networking is not as simple is not a witness as not an expert is not your client is a person who you’re going to be building a relationship. So you’re right, we need to solve that.


Steve Fretzin  [10:55]

In one of the things that has come around in the last five or 10 years is a saying that I grew up with my whole life. And it’s it goes something like this, treat people the way you want to be treated. And the the reality is that that’s not how it works. It’s treat people the way they want to be treated, and everyone you meet is a little different in their own way. And I think that’s really what we need to do in relationship building. And in listening and understand it’s really about understanding others. That’s really what sales is, if you understand others and their needs, and their their drive to to make change that’s going to win the day more so than a fancy pitch, which I think is a bit old school at this point.


Susan Ibitz  [11:37]

Actually, that is one of the biggest myths. Remember, there we talk about myth, I think I therefore that are going to be really applicable for your audience. If we want to go there.


Steve Fretzin  [11:46]

Yeah, let’s go to some tips about about about nonverbal. So


Susan Ibitz  [11:51]

golden rule is treat others like you’re going to be treated actually as the Platinum, treat others like they want to be treated. So your are going to be remember and remarkable in their life. Because if actually been an hour conversation, you only talk for 10 minutes, the person is going to come back to you and says oh, the best conversation I have in my life with with you like I have laryngitis. I didn’t talk that. The second one is that 93% is our body language. Actually this half study done in 69 in UCLA, Barney, today, UCLA is not teaching that. Because if I only pay attention to your body language, I need to have a baseline, I have a kind of tick. So my shoulders go the way Bill Gates have the stick, and people think he spent his last life lying like no is a tick, you need to do a baseline. And actually, when you negotiate on the phone, you don’t see body language, you need to pay attention to the words, actually the Unabomber was caught for the words. When lawyer sent me their post, I just review that they put in determine when people is deceiving and when the people is lying


Steve Fretzin  [12:59]

suits. I just want to I just want to go back for a moment. You mentioned some a statistic 93% I think what you’re referring to is that 93% of communication is nonverbal. It’s not the words, it’s everything else. That’s that that’s been sort of the the platinum sort of speech about nonverbal communication for many, many years. And you’re saying that was disproved, right? And that it is the words are a big part of it. And there’s there’s there’s more than 7% of the words is what your your that creates what the communication is


Susan Ibitz  [13:33]

the top profilers on the world, and people who those Why would I do? They don’t teach that actually, the first thing says, that is a myth. Don’t go there that can be dangerous if you don’t know how to use it.


Steve Fretzin  [13:45]

Okay, so how, let me ask you this, if you had this is maybe just your experience? How do you break it down when I’m talking to you? How much of that communication is are the words you’re using? How much of it is your body language? How much of it is your tonality and other elements of what I’m listening and watching as as you talk?


Susan Ibitz  [14:04]

How would you put down, we talk about clusters, and we can use another meet to talk about the clusters. If I cross my arms, and I lean forward and tilt my head, I’m not closing actually my two brains are making a decision. Every decision has to do with emotional and with outside information, right brain and left brain. So when I cross my arms and tilt forward, until my head, actually I’m paying attention. In that case, I’m not using words, but I need to be in tune what is happening in that case is 100% body language and expression. Now if I do the same, cross my arms, pull back and get serious and lower my head. Now lowering your head is like contempt. When is happening only one side of the face that I don’t respect your your word. Now you need to be in tune with that But if I’m in the phone, and I’m neutral, because you teach people when they dip on go to jury, they’re neutral, and they start talking. And Solomon says, we went to the park, we went to the park, and I decide, whoa, we have a change in prominence. So since we incidentally, we stopped being weak. If a person use my house, my house, my home is a change in language, how you introduce people, if I asked you tell me, what are your three best friends?


Steve Fretzin  [15:28]

You’re asking me who my three best friends are? Yeah, don’t ask that Bob, Joe. And Fred, I’ll just give you three. So I don’t want to I don’t want any internal fighting between all my close friends, as I’m saying.


Susan Ibitz  [15:39]

So, Bob, have a veteran status in your life, then Fred, people think that when you quantify things verbally, the last is the most important actually is not when somebody is celebrating and saying I want to thank my friends, my trainer and my wife, who your wife has not been supported on that. So that when words are important, because sometime we need to close so much visual stimulus, and pay attention change and pronounce the proper introduction, then when we change from week to i. So that’s when the words are important clusters. You need to set it on the right ambience. I know maybe it’s confusing, but be careful what studies and what people you follow with those studies?


Steve Fretzin  [16:26]

Well, my takeaway was always thank my wife first. So I know you said a lot of things there. That one got me right away. But if I take my wife first, I think I do that in my books. I always think a lot of people and that I make sure she’s first anyway,


Susan Ibitz  [16:39]

let’s talk good, long marriage happy, man. Yeah, wow.


Jordan Ostroff  [16:43]

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Steve Fretzin  [17:32]

You know, and the other one is, and this is maybe nonverbal, too. And I, you know, this is this is every, every husband needs to do this. It’s not about solving the problem. It’s just about listening. It’s about just being present and not, you know, watching TV while she’s, you know, telling you problem, you got to be present. And you got to be understanding. And I always wait for her to say, and what do you think I should do? Once I hear that, because I’m a Solutions guy, then I’m off to the races. But until I hear that, I don’t I just keep my mouth shot and listen, and just try to be a friend. And understanding. I think that that’s just that’s a really good just general marriage tip. But we need


Susan Ibitz  [18:09]

to understand that nobody wants to know a go for a lawyer. But when you need it, you love them. And everybody who come to a lawyer doesn’t matter. What is the solution that you gave, they’re coming in a highest take emotional because they’re being so good in divorce, they have an accident. So like you said, paying attention, not going to the fixing mode until you don’t have a baseline, the what is the problem and determine more important if you can work with that person that in gathering information happened on the first meeting, if you’re running to fix without knowing what is the situation, you can get a divorce between client and lawyer.


Steve Fretzin  [18:45]

Yeah. So let’s go let’s let’s talk about a couple of additional nonverbal tips that with let’s say that we’re networking, we’re together, face to face in person. And we’re at a networking meeting, and you and I just walk up to each other and say, Hello, are there things that you’re looking as you’re asking me questions about what I do? And you know how long I’ve been at providers or whatever the case might be? What are you watching? What are you paying attention to, to identify something about me that’s going to help you build a stronger relationship? First thing I’m looking


Susan Ibitz  [19:22]

for is you have your glass or anything in front of you making a cluster like you the most,


Steve Fretzin  [19:30]

like blocking you from me like I’m holding it out in between us like Don’t come closer. I’ve got this barrier up.


Susan Ibitz  [19:36]

Yet. You know what the most sensitive part of our body is our belly. So if I put something in front, a woman can put a handbag or men can put the cell phone if I see that close is because you are like a more aware and you’re proxemic emotional physically is high. So I need to say something to make you smile to open, maybe giving you a business card so I make you Open your hands to try and what are you going to do first is try not to close my hands not to put it on the pocket, not put it on the back. Open that situation. Yes, they come to me to meet you meaning that I need to by asking you open ended questions, things that we can say, oh my god, me too. And I can get you to from networking to tie to a place of comfort. For example, I’m going to use your Jordan t shirt. Do you know when I moved to Chicago, I moved two blocks away from his restaurant because I fell in love with Chico when I was 15 Full Jordan and I always was in love, but like huge crash. And as soon as I moved from Miami to Chicago, came up to Miami to marry a girl for Florida like, what is an I make you smile again, because I get you to probably a childhood memory like mine. Now we have a meet to we can talk about short Jordan from different aspects that we can talk about something that is related to us. As soon as you have the meet to John lie, do not exaggerate, be honest, because your mask, not only the protecting mass, the mass uses a clown is gonna show and you’re gonna forget your life. So if you’re going to lie, made it like 90% true and 10% lie. But be really careful with that. Those two things are great therapy. If you need to pay attention to anything in the body, pay attention to the feet, for us to assess your body can lie, but your feet are gonna be pointing. So as soon as somebody pointed feet to you, they’re engaged. Or if you’re in a group setting with a lot of people is talking, whoever you’re talking, the feet are pointed is the person connected. Now they’re pointing to the veteran or the door, let her person go.


Steve Fretzin  [21:51]

They’re already halfway out the door if they’re pointed that way.


Susan Ibitz  [21:54]

Or maybe they need a break to go to the bathroom and refill the drinks or read the situation, check the drink and offer maybe refill the drink says, Hey, we’re gonna give you a break. We’re gonna refill your drink. If the person goes to the bathroom. The only way you can be the polygraph is when you need to pee. So that’s how much your concentration going to hold your bladder. I know is gross. But you can lie better when you need to pee because you’re concentrating your body’s trying to hold that.


Steve Fretzin  [22:21]

Yeah. Well, that’s good advice for people that want to lie. Just get a full bladder. Yeah. What are you in? So what do you do? Going back to the I’m in a group networking group, there’s four or five people standing around talking and someone’s pigeon toed? Does that throw off the whole game? You can tell what they just told me their their feet point point inward like this, like a V inward ah, it’s just it’s just it’s just a it’s it’s a it’s a kind of a joke.


Susan Ibitz  [22:45]

No, but you know what, that’s the reason I says when I need to pay attention to a group, I pay attention to know who’s the Alpha. First, when somebody makes a joke. People laugh after that person laugh or agree or disagree, that the reason why mock trials and be sometime can be danger. Or when you do an evaluation about a person you need to separate after when they need to give the feedback. So you need to look everybody’s feet, whoever the feet are pointing, or the majority of people are pointing that when you need to go. Now in a group, you’re always have a person you want to talk. So if you want to talk to that person, what you do is check where the feet are pointed, and start talking to that person, the feet are pointed. So that person gives you agreement, social proof, and the person you want to talk is going to allow you to the circle makes sense.


Steve Fretzin  [23:39]

It does. So like what’s what’s inviting versus what sort of sort of closed off.


Susan Ibitz  [23:44]

Somebody says you’re the best is going to be taken as an expert. Instead, if you stand if I’m saying I’m an expert, oh, she’s being cocky now is deep says I’m an expert. Oh, I need to


Steve Fretzin  [23:56]

talk to Susan. Yeah, really, really interesting. You know, I’ve been teaching very, very simplified neural linguistic programming and disk, which is the behavior, the language of behavior, and I don’t want to go go down a path to too deep with that. But it really does help to identify someone’s the way that they behave the way that they act. And if you can, if you are the introverted extroverted, Are they someone that’s more people oriented, more task oriented. And so I teach I teach. I’ve been teaching this for years assessing people for probably 1520 years. Do you have just one or two tips on on that that helps you just identify maybe what type of behavior or personality someone has? Because if you’re an extrovert, like a Livewire lampshade on the head, and you’re now meeting someone who’s highly introverted, closed, body, quiet, etc. That could be a real rough beginning. So how do you how do you try to figure out how to engage someone based on either their personality or behavior?


Susan Ibitz  [24:56]

Well, we know that introverts are higher be more aggressive than extroverts. When they talk about something, they’re no, I’m passionate. So when you have somebody who’s shy or an introvert or introvert may then talk about what is their passion. So they’re going to the dopamine and endorphins are gonna get up. So we talked about this when I need to talk about me, I’m horrible. I’m horrible on that. But when I need to talk about my job, I come up super extrovert, when I’m 98%. Introvert. So if you take me to my work, if you take me to a safe place, I going to open the communication and that’s where people is going to remember you. When NLP you need to be paying attention to the words again, if I says, I see you and be sure, I hear why you saying, I feel in when you say, so we talking about I hear you is, is BD is an auditory auditory I see you is visual, I feel it as kinetic, and 85% of the population are visual, kinetic. So they want to feel the experience, they wanna see what you’re talking about. So pay attention to the little words and start talking and mirroring that language is easy to mirror language, the mirror body, for example, make me any question whereas the color of the socks if I’m wearing my PJs, what my T shirt says whatever, ask me whatever you want.


Steve Fretzin  [26:18]

Yeah, what’s, how many different types of plants do you have?


Susan Ibitz  [26:21]

How many different types of plants I have? All the ones who doesn’t die in? I can only water once a month. You know what? I’m horrible. I don’t have a green. Tom, what about you, you have fake plans. So you haven’t I have one


Steve Fretzin  [26:33]

fake plant behind me and every other plant that we’ve had in this house has died. So we’re done with plants. And it’s not great, because I love plants. I think they’re beautiful. Love them. But but if we just kill them, we’re just professional. We keep animals Great.


Susan Ibitz  [26:45]

plants die. So do you see what I did there? I make you ask the question. So you feel in control of the conversation, you ask the first questions, or I pick one question that I know that is going to give us the Mitra moment, you can share something personal, I can share something personal. Now we have repressive reciprocity where you feel that you need to share something personal to I says, What kind of plans do I have? I reply to the question with the question first. So I make sure that your brain know that I pay attention. I told you something funny about me. I didn’t show like an expert. I show goofy. I told you I’m not perfect. And I give you permission to share that with me. So that how in law cells in networking, you establish rapport, and you use words, more importantly about it, you see how words can be more important because I pay attention? The present?


Steve Fretzin  [27:44]

Yeah, that’s really and that’s where we’re gonna we’re gonna wrap up on that note, because that’s that’s really a great way to end the segment is to be present to be really listening and pay attention. And it’s amazing what you’ll find in the kinds of relationships that you’ll generate. So we are going to move on Susan to the three best of and you’ve got a really weird, interesting, unique situation and that you live in Portage, Indiana. And you live right on the edge of the Indiana Dunes. Is that correct?


Susan Ibitz  [28:11]

Yeah, actually, I live in a town called Ogden dunes that it’s all the dunes around me. And we have a beach private beach like one block away.


Steve Fretzin  [28:18]

And that’s on Lake Michigan. Correct? Yes.


Susan Ibitz  [28:21]

And the good news is you can drink and do a fire pit and see the songs It’s so perfect. Okay,


Steve Fretzin  [28:27]

when I went to the Indiana Dunes I had a very different experience. We brought alcohol after seeing about 10 signs that said Do not bring alcohol anywhere near here. And we did and then of course the cops came in gave us a really hard time sounds secure to different situations. So what So what’s the I would ask you about your favorite restaurant but I’m guessing that it’s really I don’t know if you’re Are you like trapping and hunting and trapping? To make your own? Oh, alright, so what what what what are you doing them for like a great meal out? Or are you just cooking at home on the grill? Or what are you doing?


Susan Ibitz  [29:00]

I love cooking, I have all the gadgets and I really good griller okay, that taught me but if I need to go here are going to go to wuchner, this slow cook really. And they have a bar because other places they don’t have a bar. So actually, I see people were from Wisconsin and Chicago, come in here and when my friends come in, actually they asked me first if Wagner is going to be open and when we go in


Steve Fretzin  [29:24]

Oh my god. Alright, so and I’m not that far from you. So I think that might be that might have to be like a like a trip out there. I’ve never more than welcome. Well, thank you. Alright, and then and then obviously, the thing to do in your areas to kind of check out the dunes in the lake and kind of you know, you know, bring up bring up the beach towel,


Susan Ibitz  [29:42]

biking, trailing, tennis, golf, sailing. I have friends who come in from Chico with a boat and we sail in this area. We have one of the best golf courts and I have tennis court and basketball and trailing inside where I live in this kind of gated community. So you don’t You’re not going to have a one week in a study, even though you’re not the community now live around is so much nature and nice places to go that you never can be steady. So bring whatever you want.


Steve Fretzin  [30:11]

Oh, that’s awesome. That’s awesome. Well, Susan, thank you so much for being on the show. People want to get in touch with you to learn more about human behavior lab and how to, you know, win jury trials or how to be a stronger, you know, networker and business developer, how do they reach you?


Susan Ibitz  [30:27]

They can go to human behavior lab that calm or you can go to LinkedIn is one of the places where I connect the most go to Susana, it’s Google, me and a couple of pages are going to show up. So it’s going to be easy that way.


Steve Fretzin  [30:41]

Yeah. And we’ve got all the show notes for you as well, if you’re on your Apple iPhone or on my website, and listen, everybody, thank you so much for coming. And Susan, thank you for being on the show. And I think my audience for listening real quick to a new book is out. This is my fourth book, it is called legal business development isn’t rocket science. And if you’d like to get a copy, just jump on Amazon and go support my son’s 529 plan, because that’s where the money’s going. But I think you’ll get a lot out of it. It’s got 50 Plus chapters, all my greatest hits, marketing, networking, business development, practice management, you name it, it’s got it in there. Hopefully you grab a copy and enjoy it. And listen, everybody as you know, it’s all about being that lawyer someone who’s confident organized in a skilled Rainmaker. Take care, be safe and be well.


Narrator  [31:32]

Thanks for listening to be that lawyer, life changing strategies and resources for growing a successful law practice. Visit Steve’s website For additional information, and to stay up to date on the latest legal business development and marketing trends. For more information and important links about today’s episode, check out today’s show notes