In this episode, Steve Fretzin and Susie Pontefract discuss:
- Evolving leadership across generational landscapes
- Embedding purpose-driven organizational strategies
- Building cultures of human potential
- Personal values shaping leadership impact
Key Takeaways:
- Leadership requires letting go of ego and creating intentional space for others to step in, lead, and grow through a foundation of trust, mutual respect, and genuine empowerment.
- Effective leaders must prioritize understanding and supporting their team’s holistic development by recognizing individual potential, nurturing personal growth, and creating environments that transcend traditional workplace boundaries.
- Organizations should transform their approach from treating employees as human capital to cultivating human potential by embracing each individual’s unique strengths, aspirations, and capacity for meaningful contribution.
- Successful leadership demands continuous learning, deep empathy, and adaptive strategies that bridge generational differences, foster inclusive communication, and create collaborative environments where diverse talents can flourish.
“If you want to be a rainmaker out there doing your own thing, then give your people the power to get the rest of it done and make sure you’re giving them the kudos and credit when they do.” — Susie Pontefract
Unlock the secrets of the industry’s top rainmakers with Be That Lawyer: 101 Top Rainmakers’ Secrets to Growing a Successful Law Practice. Grab your ultimate guide to building a thriving law firm now on Amazon: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0F78HXJHT
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Episode References:
Good Boss, Bad Boss by Robert I. Sutton: https://www.amazon.com/Good-Boss-Bad-Learn-Worst/dp/0446556076
About Susie Pontefract: Susie is a dynamic and results-oriented leader and mentor with over 20 years of demonstrated success in strategic leadership, team management, and value delivery across a wide range of industries and company sizes. She is recognized for empowering teams, inspiring leaders, and building strong, collaborative partnerships across all organizational levels—from front-line employees to executives, board members, and external stakeholders. As the founder of Cohearence Consulting, Susie is dedicated to helping small to mid-sized companies strengthen their organizations through cohesive strategies, aligned teams, and exceptional execution.
Connect with Susie Pontefract:
Website: co-hear-ence.com
Email: [email protected]
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/susiepontefract/ & https://www.linkedin.com/company/cohearence-consulting
Connect with Steve Fretzin:
LinkedIn: Steve Fretzin
Twitter: @stevefretzin
Instagram: @fretzinsteve
Facebook: Fretzin, Inc.
Website: Fretzin.com
Email: [email protected]
Book: Legal Business Development Isn’t Rocket Science and more!
YouTube: Steve Fretzin
Call Steve directly at 847-602-6911
Audio production by Turnkey Podcast Productions. You’re the expert. Your podcast will prove it.
FULL TRANSCRIPT
Steve Fretzin [00:00]
Hey everybody. Steve Fretzin, here, and here’s a little interesting stat for you. Did you know that over 70 plus percent of lawyers don’t have a business development plan? That’s why I created be that lawyer. 101 top Rainmaker secrets to growing a successful law practice. It’s essentially a collection of secrets from the best rainmakers in the game. It’s practical, it’s inspiring, and it’s ready to help you grow your practice. Develop the plan that’s going to help you succeed. It’s now available on Amazon. Grab a copy and be that lawyer.
Narrator [00:33]
You’re listening to be that lawyer. Life changing strategies and resources for growing a successful law practice. Each episode your host, author and lawyer coach, Steve Fretzin, will take a deeper dive, helping you grow your law practice in less time with greater results. Now here’s your host, Steve Fretzin.
Steve Fretzin [00:55]
Hey everybody, welcome back. It is Steve Fretzin with the be that lawyer podcast. We are just past 500 episodes. Hopefully you’ve been a longtime listener, and if so, please give us some kind reviews on Spotify or Apple or wherever you’re listening to the podcast. And also don’t be shy to tell people about it. We’re not a secret. We don’t want to be a best kept secret, as they say. So definitely help people know about it. And what this show is all about, if you’re new, is helping you to be that lawyer, some confident, organized and a skilled Rainmaker, providing all of the different skills and information and habits to help you develop and grow a successful law practice. And so I’ve got some wonderful guests, including today with Susie. How are you Susie?
Susie Pontefract [01:35]
I’m great. Thank you, Steve.
Steve Fretzin [01:37]
Thanks for being here. I’m so happy that we’re connected and together today, I think we had just a great kind of initial chat, and I think we connected on a bunch of levels and leading into what we’re going to talk about today. So good stuff.
Susie Pontefract [01:50]
Excellent.
Steve Fretzin [01:50]
Yeah, yeah, yeah. All right, so let’s jump in. We’ve got the quote of the show, and you gave me two, and I had to pick one, and it was tough, because they’re both really good, but this is a Simon Sinek. It’s leadership is not about being in charge. It’s about taking care of those in your charge. And that’s, I couldn’t choose the other one, just because that one is they’re both so good for the topic for today. But welcome to the show, and please let us know why that quote. What do you love about it?
Susie Pontefract [02:17]
I love it. So I’m a big believer in servant leadership. In my 20 plus years of leading people, I’ve just found that to be the most effective way to really manage people, have them be happy in their role, and, quite honestly, get the most out of folks. You know, there’s lots of different management styles, but I think when you’re putting your people first, you’re getting what you need to get done for the organization. But quite frankly, I find it rewarding, because you see them grow and get better. And to me, that’s what it’s really all about.
Steve Fretzin [02:49]
I had a conversation with a new prospective client for my services, and I started asking her some questions, and her inability to answer the questions told me everything I needed to know. She didn’t know how to if origin, if she would get credit for originations, meaning bringing in new work. She didn’t know, like anything about how to approach somebody to ask a question about comp and does she get compensated for bringing in business. There’s no point, no idea of how to elevate in her in her firm. I mean, the culture was definitely Rainmaker in charge, and then everyone else just do your job. And I was like, Holy crap. That still exists. That’s still a model for law firms that are that, and they’re doing well, I mean, right now, but, I mean, I don’t know how someone can stay in that space for that long. Maybe they don’t care.
Susie Pontefract [03:39]
Yeah, just they’re doing well, but they could be doing so much better, yeah, I think.
Steve Fretzin [03:43]
Well and I think in some cases, they’re afraid to let associates develop business the big firms in particular, because, you know, these are the worker bees that get the job done and let the rainmakers, you know, live the life. And then these are, these are the, you know, the cogs in the wheel and all that spokes in the wheel that help keep everything running, and they just need them to crank out billable hours. However, that’s not really a great cultural long term play for many of the people there. So I am going to take a moment just to go through your second quote of the show, because they’re both so good. This one’s Nelson Mandela lead from the back and let others believe they are in front. So since you gave me two, I’m going to let you do two, and then this will be fun for everybody. So tell us a little bit about that quote and why you quote and why you love it.
Susie Pontefract [04:25]
I think it’s similar to the first if you give people that sort of empowerment and that sort of respect, again, they will people you know. They want self actualization. They want to know that they matter. They want to be in charge of their own destiny, and to give them that help them get there again. I just, I think that’s the way you get enthusiastic, independently driven employees, as opposed to you having to look over their shoulder and constantly just feed them the next task. I mean, if you want to be a rainmaker out there doing your own thing, then give your people the power to get the rest of it done and make sure you’re getting. Giving them the kudos and credit when they do.
Steve Fretzin [05:02]
Yeah, and I’ve interviewed so many people on this show, leaders of firms that talk that piece up so well, and I know that’s why they’re they’re so successful because they’re rising up all the ships, and they’re really making sure their culture is is strong. And they’re asking, you know, what do you want in your career, and what’s important to you? And what do you know? What do you like to do when you’re not here, like they’re trying to get to know people on a level that goes beyond just here, here’s your work, and it’s just, it’s sort of a mandatory thing, and if not now, then it will be, you know, in the future, as people get more and more, and maybe even as we talk about younger generations, that it’s going to be, it continues to be more important to learn about them as humans. But let’s take a step back, Susie, for everybody listening, Susie Pontefract is the founder of coherence consulting, and give everybody an idea like where you come from and kind of where you add value in the world.
Susie Pontefract [05:53]
So where I come from, so I have so I guess we’ll start with my education. So I’ve got a Bachelor’s of Science in chemical engineering. So really was, I would say, into the a little bit, the nerd them, I guess you could say. And then I also have my master’s in science, in management. And when I started in my career, I quickly, I’ve always sort of slipped into leadership roles. And quite frankly, immediately, when I started working, became a manager of a team, and have been leading teams, like I said, for most of my career, and have found that I just, I love it, and I’ve worked in a lot of different industries. I’ve worked in manufacturing, healthcare, software, tech, and all of those things needed different, you know, different things, right? So they’re all my focus on my teams was very different, but managing them and getting them to do you know what they needed to do and help developing and that is just the same no matter where you go. And I’ve just found the thing that I’ve been passionate about through all of it is just I’ve read so many leadership books. I just self studied I’ve just been passionate about my entire career. And in a lot of these roles, I was asked to mentor other managers, and even managers above my pay grade. And so just last year, I decided, you know, I want to try this myself. I want to see how many people I can help and really focus on I with small businesses, the small businesses I worked in, I realized it is, it is difficult to to get your managers, or yourself the training you need to be a great manager. And I felt like that’s a place where I could really make a difference, and, you know, create ways to help these small to medium sized firms really succeed.
Steve Fretzin [07:34]
Yeah, and interestingly, you know, enough in the corporate world that people get chosen to be managers and leaders, and they get trained to manage. They get put in programs in the legal space, there’s really none of that, or very little of that, so they’re not learning management and leadership in law school, college or at the law firm level. They are just literally thrown into it. They say, Hey, do you want to be the managing partner of this office? And someone says, Well, that sounds prestigious, sure. And then they get now, all right, now, by the way, now you have to deal with people internally, externally, client, like all this stuff that you’ve never been trained for. And so talk a little bit about why that should be a concern and what can happen when there’s a lack of training.
Susie Pontefract [08:17]
I think there’s a little bit of a myth out there that manage good managers are born, not made like you either know how to do it or you don’t. And I absolutely disagree with that. I think, sure, there are certain people where it comes more naturally, but there are just certain and I wouldn’t even say it’s not like, it’s not magical, it’s not it’s there’s just certain things you can do and practice and get very good at it. And those things, again, they just, if you can do that with your team, I call them the management Big Five. They’re just things that you can do. And if you focus on that your team, you’ll all be rowing in the right direction, and your team will get things done. I mean, the the story you were telling in the beginning, where they didn’t know if they were going to, you know how they were going to be compensated, or how who they were supposed to ask? Imagine the time that person is wasting. They’re sitting there too scared to ask those questions. They’re not being effective in that firm. And they’re quite frank, they’re too scared to go out and ask to do more, right? So it’s really these simple things that I feel that it takes practice, and practice makes perfect, but if you can really just focus on that in the morning every day, just kind of day, just kind of look at that list and say, Am I doing this today? Leave a little extra time. I don’t think it takes a lot of extra time. You leave a little time in your day to make sure you’re getting that done. And I just the rewards you’ll see. I mean, there are so many stats out there about how firms with good management practices are so much more effective and profitable, and they get more client referrals that you know, the list just goes on and on.
Steve Fretzin [09:46]
Yeah, so it’s a matter of, I think, selection of people who maybe have an interest and maybe a capacity to be a good manager, and then getting them the training, and then maybe how they improve over time and continue to learn. Learn how to develop a strong culture, how to, you know, delegate, how to manage, how to operate, and and again, that’s not everyone can learn skills in business development, management, etc, but I guess that’s, that’s the question is, like, you know, there’s people who are built, you know, to be, you know, worker bees, or there’s people that are built to be rainmakers. Everybody can do everything. But is that the same with management?
Susie Pontefract [10:23]
What I think is important, let’s say you are, you’re a great Rainmaker, right? That’s where your skills are. You know, it if you focus your time on really doing that, your firm is going to be the most successful, then it’s good to recognize in yourself. So I don’t have, I’m not managing. I don’t have the time to manage and then making sure you’re bringing somebody in, just like you said, who’s interested in it, you know, have that skill set available. Or, if you’ve got manager partners, managing teams, make sure they’re getting the support to have those skills available. And again, it can be just starting with a few training classes, just so you start thinking about these things, as opposed to, you know, if you don’t know what you don’t know, you’ll never get better at it.
Steve Fretzin [11:01]
Right? And I see that quite a bit too. If people that take on partnerships, I think the more successful partnerships and the more successful firms, they’ve got someone with one sort of personality, style and skill, and then that gets complemented by, you know, maybe the, you know, the person who’s got a very high executive functioning skill and operational skill, because that person can manage the flow and the in the client work, and then people and the other person can be the face of the company and go out and develop the business and the relationships. And you know, it’s like, if you have two people that are the same, maybe that’s not the right combination.
Susie Pontefract [11:39]
Yeah, unless you know somebody is willing to fill in that other role. Again, I think people can do it. It’s a matter of, do they have the time, and is that their best? And it’s interesting you talk about kind of the personality assessments. I do find doing that with your team and yourself is so important because you recognize how you approach problems, you recognize how your team, you know their work styles, how they approach things. And I will say, in the roles where I feel I’ve been the most successful leader, it’s I identify. I have a few blind spots. And if I find that person who I know can fill those in, and can really, you know, and I get, I take that feedback, you have to be willing to be willing to take that feedback and say, Hey, we’re going into this situation. This is what I saw. And it just rounds you out. And I think makes everything, yeah, more effective. But you have to recognize where you’re good and then where you need, you know, the space is filled and be, you know, be humble about it.
Steve Fretzin [12:36]
Yeah. So I’m growing up in the 70s and the 80s, because I’m old, and I remember very distinctly my father, you know, ragging on me for my stupid music that I was listening to. You know, mostly that 80s, you know, that could be Duran, Duran, that could be, you know, we could go off and list all the names of the of the bands, you know, all you know, to you too, and REM and all this stuff. And what do you listen that crap and that jump and and just the way that that he approached the younger generation in now we’re, I’m a Gen X, right? And now I’m looking at the millennials, and I’m thinking and feeling certain things, and then the millennials have the Gen Z, and they’re certainly feeling certain things. And I think there’s, you know, four or five generations that are potentially working together, and it’s become very challenging. I’d like you to talk about that in general, about different generations working together. And then I do want to take some extra time to really talk about the Gen Z group, and not because they’re special to all of us, or special in in the middle of all of us, but because I think there’s, there’s definitely some negativity going on around the younger people, and maybe we need to address it, but give us an idea about the generations first.
Susie Pontefract [13:47]
Well, so right now in the workforce, you’ve got four generations that are all working together. You’ve got the Baby Boomers right now, they’re 61 to 79 years old. They are not retiring as much as the generations before the map. So they are. They are still there working, and they make about 15% of the workforce. Then you’ve got Gen X, our beloved generation, and they are right now, 47 to 60 years old, and they make up 31% of the workforce, and are, quite frankly, most of the leadership roles at this point, Gen Y, they’re 31 to 46 and they make up 36% of the the generation. And you know, it’s interesting when you think about, you know, you’ve got Gen Y, is, is, is middle aged. Now those millennials are, you know, middle aged. And they were, you know, the youth generation coming in. They were changing everything. And now they’re, they’re all like, yeah, oh yeah, yeah, they’re old. And they’re, they’re shocked that they’re getting old, you know, just like we were, and then you’ve got Gen Z, and they’re just entering the workforce. So right now, they are 10 to 30 years old, and they make up 18% but of course, arising every year.
Steve Fretzin [14:59]
Yeah. Yeah. With proven SEO and digital marketing strategies that drive actual clients to your firm, rankings.io. Prides itself on proof, not promises. Mentality, the best firms hire rankings.io. When they want rankings, traffic and cases, other law firm marketing agencies can’t deliver, get more rankings, get cases and schedule a free [email protected] today. Hey everybody. It’s Steve Fretzin as the you know, I’m the host of the be that lawyer podcast, and if you’re serious about growing your law practice, let’s talk. I’ve coached hundreds of attorneys to build bigger books of business without selling, chasing or wasting time. This isn’t a sales pitch. It’s a real 30 minute strategy session to explore what’s possible for you in your practice. Just head over to fretzin.com and grab a time that works for you. And let’s make this your breakout year. And so like I said, you know, it’s very difficult to look at all those generations and figure out how they would work well together, because everyone looks down a little bit on the generation under them and thinks they’re stupid or that they’re crazy or that they’re lazy or they’re whatever. How do they I mean, how do they work cohesively together? What are some keys to the success there?
Susie Pontefract [16:10]
I think the key to success, it’s funny, because we talk about, you know, the generations see how difficult it is, and when I was getting my master’s, I did a big research project on the generations. And I remember when I was a young Gen zer, just entering the workforce, Time Magazine did this big article on Gen X. And you know that we were, our attention span was shortened because we were just flipping channels all the time, you know, on the TV, you know, sitting there, basically flipping the channels. But we were flipping channels. Yeah, we were loved our roommates, you know. And there were, you know, movies made about us called slackers, right? You know that? And there were just quotes that I pulled from that article. And at that point, the millennial generation was coming in, and it was so funny, because the quote that Time magazine was saying about us, they were now saying exactly about the millennials, and they’re now saying that about Gen Z. And just, you know, I started to really dig deep. And while there are, frankly, there are formative experiences for every generation. But, you know, I have this quote from, and I’d love for you to guess who this quote is from. All right, it is the young. Think they know everything and are always quite sure about it.
Steve Fretzin [17:22]
I don’t think I’m going to be able to pull that out of my you know.
Susie Pontefract [17:27]
So that was Aristotle in fourth century, BCE. So, you know, bemoaning the Young has been, you know, that we’ve always, always done. And so I think we’re all at different life stages, these generations. So I think a big way to approach it is with some empathy and understanding, right? So you’ve got the Baby Boomers, they’re getting ready to, you know, go on to the next phase of their life. They’ve built, you know, they’ve built organizations, they’ve, they’ve, they’ve got their legacy that they care about and making sure you understand that that’s where they are. You’ve got Gen Z, right? We’re in leadership positions. We’ve been doing this for a long time, and I think, you know, there’s a lot of knowledge that a Gen X has. And I quite frankly, think our generation has been a little bit overlooked, because you had the baby boomers, which were a big deal, and you had the millennials that were a big deal. And a lot of times, just like we’ve always it’s Gen X is a little bit of forgotten about, but right now, we are the ones that are in these leadership positions and are kind of running the ship. Then you’ve got, you know, Gen Y. They’re, they’re having families, right? They’re, they’re in the midst of, of of, you know, raising those kids, taking care of sick parents, that kind of thing. And so a lot of what was said about Gen Y, nobody’s saying it anymore. They’re not switching jobs, they’re not short attention span. They’re they’re taking care of their families now. And so that all that has gone by the wayside. And then you’ve got Gen Z. They are young. They are just coming out of school. They don’t know how to be a professional because school universities don’t teach folks how to do that. I think we as a generation, Gen X, you know, we came into the workforce that email was just becoming a thing, right? We were learning how to do it together. We were accidentally replying all and copying whoever and making those horrible mistakes, but we were doing it together, and so we weren’t necessarily judge the way, I think someone who’s now managing a Gen zer who, quite frankly, yeah, texting is how they communicate. So they need to be taught how to send an email. They need to be taught some of that, that structure and being understanding of that and that we didn’t, we didn’t come into the workforce knowing how it all worked. Either we had to figure it out. And they need to figure it out.
Steve Fretzin [19:42]
Yeah, I mean, there was a time. I mean, we just keep going back into this nostalgia. But when you know the telephone came out and people were going to be well, no, you can’t, you can’t communicate on a telephone. You know, it’s got to be face to face. How are you going to see someone’s expression? How do you know if they’re lying to you or not? How are you gonna that’s the way we’ve always done. And now there’s telephone, and now there’s internet, and now there’s, you know, email, and now text. And, you know, the texting, you know, I’ve become very, very efficient at texting. I love texting. It’s just so easy and quick and fast and get stuff done, just my jam. And, you know, I look at my teenager, my 18 year old, and I his texts are a disaster. I mean, I just, I don’t understand what the hell he’s saying half the time. And what’s all these eggplant emojis? No, I’m just kidding. But, like, you know, why is he sending that to me? No, but it’s, it’s, it just, it’s just amazing that can, you know? So again, I think, I think when we, when we talk about the Gen Z, I love that you’re saying empathy. There’s value in every generation. And I think the problem is we’re not looking for it.
Susie Pontefract [20:44]
I think you’re absolutely right. I think Gen Z more than any other generation, they can just figure out stuff on their own. In fact, they love to. So my I’m a parent of two Gen Zers, and like you were, like my son, you know, he just went and built his own computer because he watched some YouTube videos. And videos and he just went and got that done. Or he just, you know, he wants to go do this. He watches some YouTube videos, and he can go get that done, you know. And my daughter is the same way. And so when I try to tell them to do something, they’re annoyed because there is some video out there that probably tells them how to do it, do it better. And so the the their ability to go and do that self research. I mean, they’ve been doing it the whole time. They’ve always had this right at their fingertips to go look up anything, figure anything out. And that is, I think, something organizations can really embrace. I think sometimes it’s difficult, especially for leaders. If you have a certain process in place or something that this is the way it’s just been done. And then you have a young whippersnapper come in there and say, Hey, why are we doing it this way? We could do it this way. You know, Hey, have you tried AI? Because they’re learning AI in school. And, you know, our natural tendency is to dig in. And what do you know? But I’ve just found if you say, okay, you know, you’ve got this many hours, go prove to me that it’s better that way, either they prove themselves wrong and then, you know, they’ve learned a valuable lesson, or you get something better out of it, if you can just again, be humble enough to, you know, look at it and accept it. And, I mean, I can’t tell you how many process improvements happened when I was managing teams, when I was open to listening to those changes and saying, okay, prove it to me. And we got huge.
Steve Fretzin [22:28]
Yeah, huge, I think. But what you’re saying, prove it to me is also saying, Hey, I’m not shutting you down. I’m open to this. Bring me the solution. Don’t bring me the problem. Bring me the solution. And that’s something we can all relate to. We all want people to come to us, not with problems, with solutions. That’s a Gen X thing too, like we would all prefer that. So what are a couple other things you could share about either managing or communicating with Gen Z that would be helpful to the grumpy Gen X people that are dealing with in the younger generation?
Susie Pontefract [22:56]
The thing you know I hear a lot about when I’m talking to clients about Gen Z is the focus on mental health. I get the question a lot, where you’ll have, you’ll be in the middle of a project or something, and a Gen Z or will say, hey, I need to take a mental health day. And for Gen Xers, we’re like, what are you? You know, we all maybe took mental health is we didn’t stay rub some dirtiness, rub some dirtiness. We would like pop on the phone and pretend we were actually sick. But this generation, they, you know, they were, they came up during covid and schools and organizations, and they, quite frankly, struggled. I mean, imagine being, you know, a 10 year old trying to attend school via a screen and not seeing your friends, and you know, it took a toll on mental health. I mean, we’re seeing the effects of that. And the schools, everybody, I would say, appreciated mental health and talked about mental health. And so mental health isn’t this bad word to Gen Zers, and mental health to them is as important as, you know, physical health. And so to say I need a mental health day is just as you know, legit as saying, you know, I’ve got a cold today. And so it’s not that you give them more days. It’s still a sick day, it’s still a day off. But, you know, accepting that this is a legit, you know, a legit concern for them. Now, I will say there is some, I think, guidance that they need where it’s almost like mental health was almost kind of a cool thing to have, if you if you want to say and so kind of talking about, you know, okay, what’s when are we really having an issue versus, you know, I know this is hard, and sometimes we’ve got to do hard things and get through it, but you got to be gentle with that guidance. And, you know, talk to them and listen. So what’s going on? What are you worried about? And quite funny, I think giving them a buddy, besides, it’s just being you. I really think when you’ve got a new member of your organization, giving them somebody safe that they can go ask questions. Of like, Hey, how is this handled? How, how do I do this? How do I approach the boss about this? Yeah, give him a safe, somebody to talk to, helps take that, all of that burden off of you always having to do it, if you know what I mean.
Steve Fretzin [25:13]
Yeah. So we’re talking about, you know, empathy. And we’re bringing in the idea that, you know mental health is, is a critical. And I think especially in the legal space, everyone should appreciate the importance of mental health, because the level of depression and suicide and drug abuse and alcohol is so so high in the industry. And I love the idea of saying, Hey, here’s a buddy, or here’s a mentor, someone that you can go to to ask things which my person I mentioned earlier doesn’t have, doesn’t have anyone older at the firm that she can talk to that’s so awful and For shame on that firm, not, you know, having, you know, having a culture that would at least allow for anyone to, like talk to anyone about something that you know involves a career in their time, in their life. Let’s wrap up one final tip, or thought about communicating with Gen Z, and then we’re going to move to our game changing book.
Susie Pontefract [26:05]
Okay, so I will say the one other thing that I do think is is really different about Gen Z, and isn’t just, you know, hype is deadlines, struggling with deadlines, and again, because of covid, a lot of schools made deadlines very wishy washy, like it was, you know, sure you can’t turn it in now, turn it in later. Turn it by the end of the semester. And many of them have kept that post covid. I will say my senior son, he can turn things in all the way to, like, the last couple weeks of the semester. And so I’m always on him trying to get things done. And so this is a learned and in college, the same thing was happening. And so you’re you do have to take the time to start setting those deadlines. Start with something small, tell them why it matters, reinforce it, setting those clear expectations of this is what’s due and when, and you know, and then making sure you’re checking in, because they do need to adjust that mindset, because they it just has not been enforced. Yeah, at in school, like, you know, we all had.
Steve Fretzin [27:06]
Yeah, I was forced to learn executive functioning at some kind of level just because everything was due on the day it was due. And either you either got a zero, or you got your grade and to your point, you know, now it’s much more loose and much more understanding, which I think is great, but it’s not teaching them some things that are going to be like. What’s life going to be like? You know, in law, you’ve got deadlines, right? You’ve got client demands, you’ve got partner demands, you’ve got all this stuff that you can’t just say, well, I’ll get it in when I get it in. It’s not how life works so.
Susie Pontefract [27:36]
And I think you’re going to have to lay that down for them. We all assume they’re going to know that. Unfortunately, they don’t, and so you got to lay that down in the beginning and make it clear. And I think that helps head off a lot of issues.
Steve Fretzin [27:48]
I think you’re saying, set expectations. Make sure they’re understood, so that there’s no ambiguity.
Susie Pontefract [27:54]
Yeah, follow up. Make sure you’re checking in.
Steve Fretzin [27:57]
And checking in. Great, great, great, love it all right. Game Changing book. Here we go, good boss, bad boss. Tell us.
Susie Pontefract [28:03]
I just, I just love that book. The author, it was the same author who wrote the no Asshole Rule, which I also loved. And after he wrote the no Asshole Rule, he got, you know, so many requests of it was all examples of, like, the assholes. And so he’s like, Well, what are, you know, he got requests. What’s a good boss. And so this book really covers a lot of different scenarios. And what I really love about it, it’s not buzzwords, it’s, it is really, here are examples of bosses doing what they need to do. And it is, you know, it’s about servant leadership. It’s also about, you know, how do you get the most for your team? And it’s not all about just being what I say, like a pushover boss. It’s not that. It’s like, how do you get everybody bought in? And I just think has great, real world stories. And quite frankly, in the book says, if anybody’s selling you some new this is the new way to manage. It’s not people are still people. People have been people, right? The Aristotle quote is there, you know, there’s a way to manage. And sure, sometimes there’s little changes, but it’s any book telling you this is a whole new way, I think, is that it, they’re just selling books, I think, right? And, yeah. And so it really, it helps me, because I, for me, it’s, it’s not just the buzz speak gives you real world examples. And for me, that I think is so helpful.
Steve Fretzin [29:16]
Yeah, awesome. Check that book out, everybody. And also check out our sponsors. We’ve got pimcon coming up in October. You’re going to want to, if your PI attorney, you’re going to want to check that out. And, of course, the law her podcast with my friend Sonia, crushing it over there and Susie, if people want to get in touch with you, they want to hear more about coherence consulting. What are the best ways for them to reach out to you?
Susie Pontefract [29:38]
So there’s my website, and it’s coherence, but it’s D, O, hyphen, H, E, A, R, hyphen, e, n, d, e.com, and I, I misspelled it on purpose. It’s all about hearing others. Um, so coherence.com, and you can also just email me at [email protected], with those hyphens. And I would love, I just love this stuff. I’d love. Talk to anybody. If you’ve got any questions, I’m happy to dig in and discuss them with you.
Steve Fretzin [30:05]
Yeah, and all the details in the show notes, everybody as well. Susie, thank you so much. This is helpful. I mean, again, I’m in a room like today, for example, I’ve got my Rainmaker Roundtable. I’m in a room with, you know, almost a dozen managing partners and people dealing with, you know, they’re all Gen, mostly Gen X, and they’re all dealing with millennials and hiring and trying to train and coach and all this stuff. And it’s, it’s challenged. So everything you shared today, I think, is just super helpful, especially to the to the leadership that are trying to figure out, how do we get the most value from these folks and help them be their best versions as well? So thanks so much.
Susie Pontefract [30:41]
Yeah, you bet. Thanks for having me.
Steve Fretzin [30:44]
Absolutely. And hey, thank you everybody for hanging out with Suzy today on be that lawyer. We’re here twice a week for your listening pleasure. And also check us out on YouTube. We’ve got all the video clips, and of course, we have all of our blogcasts available on our website and through above the law, if you like, above the law. That’s where many of my articles are, and also some videos from the podcast. So check that out. Thank you. Everybody. Take care, be safe, be well. We will talk again soon.
Narrator [31:13]
Thanks for listening to be that loyal. Life changing strategies and resources for growing a successful law practice. Visit Steve’s website, fredson.com for additional information and to stay up to date on the latest legal business development and marketing trends. For more information and important links about today’s episode, check out today’s show notes.