In this episode, Steve Fretzin and Wes Lungwitz discuss:
- Adapting to change in legal marketing
- Strengthening the website as the foundation
- Optimizing for AI-driven discovery
- Evaluating partners and acting proactively
Key Takeaways:
- Law firm growth now depends on adapting to AI, new search behavior, and shifting marketing dynamics. Firms that remain static risk losing visibility as discovery moves beyond traditional SEO.
- A law firm website must be fast, technically clean, accessible, and well-structured. Personalized practice-area content and visible social proof reinforce trust and conversion.
- Search is shifting toward AI assistants and answer engines that reward clarity and structure. Conversational content, deep practice pages, and schema markup increase AI visibility.
- Agencies must actively address AI visibility, schema strategy, and changing discovery behavior. Google Business Profiles remain essential for legitimacy and intent capture.
“You have to adapt in life and change and keep up with the times, and it’s just so important in our industry and just life in general.” — Wes Lungwitz
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About Wes Lungwitz: Wes Lungwitz is the co-founder and managing partner of Civille, a digital marketing and technology company focused exclusively on helping law firms grow. With a background in highly competitive, data-driven digital marketing, he brings modern website, SEO, and analytics strategies to an industry that has traditionally lagged behind other verticals. Wes regularly speaks and writes on the future of legal marketing, including AI-driven search and evolving discovery behavior.
Connect with Wes Lungwitz:
Website: https://getciville.com/
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/wes-lungwitz-1b532432/
Connect with Steve Fretzin:
LinkedIn: Steve Fretzin
Twitter: @stevefretzin
Instagram: @fretzinsteve
Facebook: Fretzin, Inc.
Website: Fretzin.com
Email: [email protected]
Book: Legal Business Development Isn’t Rocket Science and more!
YouTube: Steve Fretzin
Call Steve directly at 847-602-6911
Audio production by Turnkey Podcast Productions. You’re the expert. Your podcast will prove it.
FULL TRANSCRIPT
Wes Lungwitz [00:00]
So AI has provided this entire age of opportunity. And now folks that have always been like, well, I feel like I’m getting outbidded, and Google doesn’t recognize me, and we’re on the third page. You can do a lot with your content and formulating, formulating it for AI to find you and your results and really get into that space. And that’s where we’re doing a lot of lot of help for some of the smaller firms that can now, you know, punch up in their weight class a little bit.
Narrator [00:29]
You’re listening to be that lawyer, life changing strategies and resources for growing a successful law practice. Each episode, your host, author and lawyer coach, Steve Fretzin, we’ll take a deeper dive, helping you grow your law practice in less time with greater results. Now here’s your host, Steve Fretzin.
Steve Fretzin [00:52]
Hey everybody. Steve Fretzin, here and welcome to be that lawyer. This is the show that helps you to be that lawyer, confident, organized in a skilled Rainmaker. We are here twice a week, coming up on 570 shows in just under six years. So we’re at a pretty good clip, and we’re very excited about that. We are aligned with not only above the law, but also attorney at work. So you’re going to want to check us out and the content that we create for those two publications, as well as what we’re doing here on YouTube. So happy to be here and happy to have my amazing guest. Wes, how you doing, buddy? Hey, doing well, Steve, thanks so much for having me. You’re up in Oshkosh, Wisconsin. That’s right, Central Wisconsin. That’s where they make the jeans with the suspenders, right? I mean, they used to, they used to, that’s Oshkosh. Oh, gosh, whatever. That was like a big baby thing for a while.
Wes Lungwitz [01:37]
For sure, for sure. Yep, it’s, it’s been sold off and out of here, but, yeah, that’s the name still.
Steve Fretzin [01:42]
Like, there’s got to be something better that we’re known for as a universe, Wisconsin, Oshkosh, is it? Do you guys have a great air show too? Is that up by you?
Wes Lungwitz [01:48]
We have the largest air show in the world. Yeah, we go, that’s the one.
Steve Fretzin [01:51]
Yeah, I know we’d find it. You know, I’ve never gone to it, but I’ve always kind of wanted to. And I see sometimes, you know, when I’m in Fond du Lac with my in laws, like, I’ll see, you know, planes go by, or something like, oh, we should probably do that, but anyway, we don’t, but we maybe that’ll be on my bucket list. Yeah.
Wes Lungwitz [02:06]
I mean, admittedly, I’m in town, and I don’t go every year, so Oh, there you go. All right, well, there you have it. But we see the planes fly over right here.
Steve Fretzin [02:13]
That’s like, we have the Chicago air show, and I think I’ve gone to it once or twice ever, but yeah, occasionally. So I live right off the lake, so I kind of see sometimes. All right, let’s jump in. Enough about planes in Wisconsin. We’re going to get into the goods. Today. We’ve got an Albert Einstein quote here for our quote of the show, the measure of intelligence is the ability to change. I love that. And does that go along maybe with that quote of like, doing the same thing over and over, or getting, you know, expecting a different result. I mean, this is kind of a different play on that. But welcome to the show Wes, and tell us why you love that quote. Yeah.
Wes Lungwitz [02:45]
I mean, absolutely, I would say, I think, you know, there’s so many reasons for that. I mean, I’ve had a lot of change in my life. I think you see change in every aspect. I know we’re getting into AI, but it’s obviously kind of going there with what I was thinking with this quote. You know, you can keep doing the same products, the same things over and over, and that doesn’t mean something that worked for you so well in the past isn’t going to necessarily keep working for you. You have to adapt in life and change and keep up with the times, and it’s just so important in our industry and just life in general. So, yeah, yeah, going to Einstein. You can’t go wrong with that quote, right?
Steve Fretzin [03:18]
I mean, I think everyone in their law practice. Everyone in you know a business needs to really take stock of what just happened in 2025 went well. What didn’t go well? Where did the business come from? Where and what do you need to change moving into 2026 so I can tell you, for me, doubling down on this podcast and really investing more in it, investing in a second podcast, future rainmakers and setting up a be that lawyer community that’s happening probably end of q1 q2 to just provide a community for people who are hungry and ambitious. I don’t think I can stay the same and be happy. I think I’ve got to continue to progress and expand and grow. What are some things you’re doing in 2026 and changes you’re making?
Wes Lungwitz [04:02]
Yeah. I mean, from the business side, obviously, it’s all about adapting AI and adapting to the new world, right? So we’re, there’s so much with our platform that we’ve we’re in flux with current clients and changing for our products that we’re going to be selling, you know, into 2026 not only AI tools, but just making sure that the platform is set up for, you know that change. It’s not necessarily enrolling in new tools and selling new things, but making sure that it’s going to work with the new age of search and everything that goes along with it.
Steve Fretzin [04:31]
And I have a deep suspicion that we’re going to be going into that in a lot more detail in a few minutes, but let’s take a step back before we go forward. And that is introducing you. Wes Lungwitz Is the co founder of civil and tell us a little bit about how you came to be in not only getting into web, but also getting into legal. You know, that’s always an interesting story from you’re not a lawyer, though, right?
Wes Lungwitz [04:53]
I’m not no. So my original background in the digital space was in automotive. Actually, we were early on in. A company that did websites, digital marketing for car dealerships. So we were heavy into the automotive space. We’re one of the initial, you know, kind of first ones that really do SEO, content marketing, all those things for car dealerships. So learned a lot, very fast paced, very, you know, cutthroat space where things have to happen fast and automotive. And you know, digital directors are kind of always on the block for making sure that they’re pushing and pushing and selling cars, and it’s an incredibly competitive space. We got heavily involved with the OEMs and direct contracts with them, and it was a really big deal. So while that was happening, I actually have a good friend and my brother in law, some other contacts that are all in the legal space. So I was kind of learning, talking to them through time. You know, my good friend that’s a managing partner now, majority partner at a large firm in Milwaukee, was looking for some help, and I just kind of went through audited and kind of learned the space through him and some other people. And it became very clear that the legal industry was a little behind where automotive was. We had a lot of tech, a lot of forward thinking, and that was not always the way legal was. There was a lot of classical thinking when it came to their marketing. So we thought, wow, I can probably help him out. So I was doing consultation, basically doing consulting for him and a few other firms. At that same time, the automotive company went through a few private equity situations where it became time to exit for us as well, when we decided to take that core group and jump into legal. So four years ago, that’s what we did with civil obviously, we felt like we had done our homework. We could bring a lot of value to the space. And, yeah, it’s been growing fast. We’re pumped about it.
Steve Fretzin [06:37]
Very cool. Very cool. Yeah, it’s it’s just nice when you know when you fall into something and realize there’s a great synergy, I mean, and people have heard this story, but you know, I never thought in a million years I would work with lawyers, and got pulled into it the recession in 2008 and nine. And the connection of lawyers not learning anything about business development combined with my sales Free methodologies really aligned. It allowed me, within, I think, just under two years, to recognize that I should push all my chips in and specialize. And it’s been a fantastic marriage ever since. I never thought about looking back. I never thought, oh, maybe I’ll take on a CPA firm, or I’ll go back and work with this or that and the other No, I’m so happy, like a pig in you know what working with lawyers? It’s just every day is fun. So let’s get into this. I mean, we have search engine optimization, and I’d love for you to kind of break down the different parts of what constructs and makes a successful website, maybe what did, and then maybe what does now, and that’ll be a good segue into really taking a deeper dive into AI. But give us kind of a for people who don’t know, maybe they’re lawyers at their law firms, and they don’t have to deal with web at all. Like, give us a breakdown of, like, what constructs a great website and that’s going to be successful for a business? Yeah.
Wes Lungwitz [07:50]
I mean, right now we kind of start with, what do the search engines value? You know, a lot of that is the speed, how fast it loads, you know, the markup, the all the internal structure, basically. So we really run all of ours through Google PageSpeed Insights first, and say that’s essentially Google’s report card. And they, they own the entire space, right? Are they recommending your firm? You know, on their scorecard, it’s just PageSpeed that, that web dot Dev, open source tool for everyone to use, and that’s kind of the foundation of what we do is making sure that we’re all tied up on that. And everything that goes into that is within the platform. So it needs to load really quickly, your H tags, your schema markup, your all your internal structure. There’s a ton that goes into it, obviously, your content, development, personalizing it to you, design. All of that is always been important, you know, for any website and marketing strategy that’s foundational, with the website being the foundational piece. And now, just with AI, there’s a lot of just different things that you can do, and it’s really just making a better website, when we’re really being honest about it, just doing a lot of the things that you probably could have done, and there are some other tricks that you need to kind of implement on the schema and the technical side as well.
Steve Fretzin [09:01]
Yeah but in the past, it’s been, you know, search engine optimization, which is, you know, the art of putting content on a website that can get found by Google, right? And then the other side of it is, if you don’t want to invest the time and energy in that, or, in addition to that, having pay per click, where you could just get found and good get to the top of Google or first second page to be found, and you’re just paying per click and paying for eyeballs to basically come to you. And then obviously you have with either you need to have conversion on your website, the ability to get people into the website and then take them down a path or a journey to click a button that says, let’s meet or let’s talk, and that’s where the business is conducted. So am I missing anything, or is that kind of the gist of what people the basics of what has been up till now?
Wes Lungwitz [09:47]
Yeah. I mean, that’s the basics. Certainly we okay, you know, we don’t have to get into developer code, but absolutely.
Steve Fretzin [09:52]
Yeah please don’t. My head will explode, you know. So, all right, now we add in this new thing called AI, and I think also. So AEO, which is answer engine optimization, which I don’t think most people know about. So can you kind of explain that before we get into the weeds more deeply?
Wes Lungwitz [10:10]
Yeah, I mean, a lot of it is so with search. You know, before it was when people are trying to do the research on a law firm, right? It’s finding the top ones that show up in search, doing your research, looking at all their information, maybe some other sources that you’re seeing who are the best law firms, looking at reviews, all of that, AI is essentially putting that all in one spot for you now, where you’re saying who is the best lawyer near me. I just had a slip, you know, I just had a slip and fall accident at a business. You know, who can help me, where’s a lawyer that’s good at this? Just asking all these conversational questions is putting that information right up top for you in AI overviews, or if you’re using the larger language models, chat, GBT and the others, obviously. So it’s really just taking all that information that you might have found from different sources and putting it in one spot, and you basically want to be recommended in that spot?
Steve Fretzin [11:01]
Yeah? So someone so, like, I’ve stopped doing so many Google searches, and so now I’m going into AI, and I’m saying, you know, look, I, you know, I just had a problem. This is what happened. And who should I talk to about it? Right? I’m or I’m looking to remodel my bathroom, and I’m looking for the best people to talk to in my local area, this town and that town, and then it’s giving you those specific recommendations. And that’s different than if I do a Google search, and the people that will be found are doing something different on their website than what had traditionally been done.
Wes Lungwitz [11:34]
Yeah. I mean, a lot of it does transfer over. So if a lot of the sites that were ranking previously, they’re going to be a lot of the ones that you find in those AI overviews, but not always there. This is kind of an opportunity, like with anything skip the line, if you will. Exactly AI is provided this entire age of opportunity. And now folks that have always been like, well, I feel like I’m getting outbidded, and Google doesn’t recognize me, and we’re on the third page. You can do a lot with your content and formulating, formulating it for AI, to find you and your results and really get into that space. And that’s where we’re doing a lot of lot of help for some of the smaller firms that can now, you know, punch up in their weight class a little bit.
Steve Fretzin [12:15]
Okay, so then, how do law firms, individual lawyers, get ahead? Obviously, you know, one thing is to hire an expert like you and work with you to get it done. And you know, always recommended for lawyers or anybody when you when it’s something you don’t know well, to bring someone in that does right, because then you’re not going to make all the mistakes. But if you had to give, you know, kind of a do it yourself starting point, what would you say to, like, let’s say, an individual solo in a small town, or in a small city, or whatever that’s trying to leverage this and get ahead and skip that line. What are some things they could do?
Wes Lungwitz [12:46]
Yeah. I mean, it’s really the entire structure. So with the homepage, you just want to be more authoritative. So the age structure that’s always mattered, the h1 h2, h3 making those more conversational is a big deal. Scenario based answers, and then adding things like the social proof. So this is a really big one, so your reviews make sure those are on your site and they can actually be crawled. So you want the schema markup to be correct. Any wins that you have, you want those on awards frequently asked questions your attorneys, their background, how they help these different areas and help they help these specific cases, so that social proof that can be crawled through the schema markup that you put on FAQ, schema, how to schema, local business, Q and A blocks, all of that can be crawled and show up in there. That’s something that you can do on your homepage. And then it’s really building out from there, the practice area. Pages, same thing. So specific car accident attorney have that proper schema. Have reviews that are talking specifically how you’ve helped people in car accidents. Have some of your wins. Talk about the attorneys that work in that specific practice. So it’s not just the homepage, but building out very deep pages within their practice area, pages, your about page should be all about you. What makes you different? Just a lot of contextual elements that you can add to the site. From a content perspective, the deeper you can go, the better chance that you have to show up really, really good.
Steve Fretzin [14:16]
With proven SEO and digital marketing strategies that drive actual clients to your firm rankings.io. Prides itself on proof, not promises. Mentality. The best firms hire rankings.io. When they want rankings, traffic and cases, other law firm marketing agencies can’t deliver. Get more rankings, get cases and schedule a free [email protected] today. Hey everybody, it’s Steve Fretzin as the you know, I’m the host of the be that lawyer podcast, and if you’re serious about growing your law practice, let’s talk. I’ve coached hundreds of attorneys to build bigger books of business without selling, chasing or wasting time. This isn’t a sales pitch, it’s a real 30 minute strategy session to explore what’s possible for you in your practice. Just head over to fretzin.com and grab a time that we’re. For you, and let’s make this your breakout year. So then we’ve got people who have invested a lot of time and energy and SEO and money. Are there things that they need to do to go back in and tweak what they’ve already done? Or is it like too late you got to start from scratch and add new stuff?
Wes Lungwitz [15:17]
Yeah. I mean, this is an interesting question. It’s a case by case basis, so we would always run an audit first to kind of see like, what does the back end of the website look like? Is this something that adding content to it will help and adding this schema will help, or is there already things that are kind of blockers within the structure? Yeah, and one of the easiest ones, again, is that page speed tool, if you’re very low and it’s saying a bunch of code breaks and loading issues and all of that, you have to fix that first. That’s why we always say that’s the foundation. If you can have that foundation tied up, then you can do the other things. So the schema markup on the different how to and local and Q and A that I mentioned is a big deal, and you can actually make sure that your site is found by open AI and chat GBT, there are elements that you can put on the site, basically to show those tools specifically where to look on your site and what to crawl that can help you found, which a lot of people are not doing.
Steve Fretzin [16:20]
Yeah, if you’re currently spending money with a marketing agency, they haven’t had this conversation with you. It’s business as usual. Should you as an attorney, as a law firm, be concerned?
Wes Lungwitz [16:33]
Yeah, I would say yes. I mean, that’s something that we made that a big push with our team and our account managers right now. Like, here’s the changes that we’re doing and that, and that’s okay. Like, it doesn’t have to be Oh, wasn’t I, shouldn’t I always have had this. Like I said, we’re evolving. Like we kind of started with the changing. We understand that this new scheme has been released. Now we can show open AI and chat, GBT, that you’re relevant for these things by putting these code on the site. So we’re very upfront with them. Here’s the changes that we’re making to your site proactively for you, because we know this is important. You know, on reporting, it’s also like organic search is going down right now, right traditional organic, because of these different ways that people are finding and then calling in, and there’s a lot of data that we can’t account for right now. So we’re showing people, here’s what we should be looking for now, here’s the proactive measures that were taking place. So if somebody hasn’t had that conversation, I’d be concerned. And if you call your account rep and they’re not even familiar with all of this, that’s another big red flag.
Steve Fretzin [17:30]
I mean, that could be maybe the biggest takeaway from this conversation so far, because I think there are a lot of people in your space, Wes who are collecting 1000 to, you know, $10,000 a month to manage the website and the SEO and whatever for the law firm. And they’re not proactive. They’re not reaching out there. They are just like taking it in. And, you know, unless you request something, they’re not doing it. And it really bothers me, because that’s a lot of money people are investing, and to not have someone be proactive to see you be successful, I think that impacts their success. I don’t get it, but I also get like that. They’re just, you know, they’re just thrilled that they’re collecting the money, but they’re not really helping their clients the right way, right now.
Wes Lungwitz [18:13]
That was one of the toughest spots on entering the legal space was there’s been a lot of firms that have been burned by SEO companies, and they’re very hesitant to go.
Steve Fretzin [18:25]
Non lawyer, but Guilty as charged, my friend, yeah, pay him the money. They’ll, they’re gonna make it happen, and it does not happen.
Wes Lungwitz [18:33]
Yeah? So it’s been really, you know, building that trust, obviously, with our brand, and going the extra mile, like that’s, we’re all we’re very service based and just trusting that these are the things that we’re doing. I can probably look at your contract and see that somebody just kind of letting it go, right? They’re paying for SEO, but it’s unclear what that actually is, right, right?
Steve Fretzin [18:53]
Okay, so people should really think about getting proactive now, because we are at the beginning of this long journey, hopefully, long journey that AI is going to be a huge impact. And I, I would love to see a day, and this is just me pie in the sky, but like you know that it finds me the perfect fit for me, not only maybe personality, but as far as expertise, as far as like, what I’m saying I want, and what it connects me with isn’t just a vendor, right, that is in my area, but someone that, because it knows me, can really put me together with the right person that’s gonna, you know, take care of my needs in a way that maybe the general group wouldn’t. So I don’t know that’s do you, how do you see the future of AI, maybe even beyond websites? I’m just curious your take on it.
Wes Lungwitz [19:39]
Yeah. I mean, I think a lot of what you’re saying is kind of what we’re thinking. I mean, we’re it’s hard to jump too far ahead and know exactly where it’s going to go because it’s going so fast.
Steve Fretzin [19:49]
Well, have you seen the Terminator movies?
Wes Lungwitz [19:53]
We’ve all been warned. No, it’s that’s absolutely it. Though, you know, having your devices kind of figure every. Thing out kind of proactively for you, and understanding even you know something did happen to you, or, God forbid, you were in, you’re in an accident or something like that, and it quickly finds the solution for you and is ready to call, yeah.
Steve Fretzin [20:13]
I to take my idea even further, like I would love to see. I want to take my wife to Italy again, and I these are the places I want to go. These are the things that you know like. And what are the based on knowing me? What are the food tours? What are the things that you know we enjoy and how we like to spend our vacation? And then plot it all out, set up my airfare, set up the hotels, everything. And I just click Done, and it just does it, and it’s done like that to me, I say, replace travel agents. But like, to me, that would be like, I mean, wow, what a huge step forward in helping people enjoy, really enjoy things, instead of the punishing, painful process of doing a trip. And obviously that can be, you can extend that to any industry and any kind of concept of what you want to do, yeah.
Wes Lungwitz [20:57]
I mean, I’ve already been a winner at home a few times. It’s we’ve taken some good trips where AI has helped me with that whole itinerary. Yeah.
Steve Fretzin [21:04]
I mean, right now I’m still doing the Google and looking at the maps and where are we staying in the restaurant, like I just did this for our trip to the Florida Keys. And, you know, it’s just time intensive, but I still have to figure it out myself and look at social proof online. And anyway, so All right, let’s go back and just give one or two more Tips for Lawyers who have websites and have agencies, and what one or two things that they should be asking or talking to their agency about again, if they’re willing to do this, to start making some changes to get better equipped for 2026.
Wes Lungwitz [21:38]
Yeah, I would think so. I know I’ve said this a few times. I think the schema defined schema.
Steve Fretzin [21:43]
Because not everybody knows that word, yeah. It’s basically like the language and code?
Wes Lungwitz [21:49]
Yeah, contextual evidence on the site that shows the search engines you know exactly where to look, so like FAQ schema, it’s going to point them when they call the site. Somebody asked a question, because you have that question on your site, and you have that FAQ schema, it can find that directly, and then hopefully have that in the AI overview, right? So, yeah, if you ask your provider, first of all, what is the schema markup, what is the what is your schema structure look like for your websites? And they say, what? That’s gonna be a problem, right? And I wouldn’t be surprised if that answer from an account rep level would come so that’s a problem, right? If that person that’s driving your strategy doesn’t know that, yeah, the simple things, again, test your site on on Google Page Speed Insights, not only the Speed score, but it grades you for SEO. And you know, there’s four grades on there, the SEO and the ADA, and a few other things that you should be in the green on all of those. Those are important. I mean, whether it’s I know there’s other large language models over there, Google, AI overview is still far and away, the one that’s being used the most. They own the playing field. Still, that’s really important to make sure that that you’re hitting those scores on that tool.
Steve Fretzin [22:58]
Yeah. How about more granularly, Google, my business. And some of the stuff that is not so much website focused, but more individual law firm or lawyer focused.
Wes Lungwitz [23:08]
Yeah, Google My Business. So we do Google business profile is, you know, the official name. Now, we do a ton of that. That’s typically what we, you know, website SEO, content development, and Google Business Profile goes right along with that in the packaging, because it’s, it’s kind of like, that’s the, if the website is one A, that’s 1b for your strategy, right? Yeah, yeah. It’s on the things you can get looking at it visually. So is there a nice picture on the top? Are you responding to your reviews? Do you have product section built out? Are you building posts when you search for your area, car accident attorney near me? Are you showing up? You know? And a lot of those a little tip on the business profile. When you see the ones that have the little call out with the little green check that says, provides car accident attorney or something related to your search, those are actually keywords that either you or a provider is putting on the back end of the business profile that helps show up in those map ring map results and ultimately rank you for a local on the map. So that’s a really big one. We had keywords weekly, just different variations of long tail keywords on that as well. So really, with the Google business profile, it’s kind of a are you finding yourself in the maps results, and then when you look, when you search your business name, or if you have access to it, which you should on the back end, look at all those visual elements. Are they happening?
Steve Fretzin [24:28]
Yeah. And if somebody has more of a national business versus a local business, is it still important to focus on the Google My Business? Or is that less important? If it’s not, yeah, a local business.
Wes Lungwitz [24:39]
It is. I mean, I would say even if you’re national, you know, like disability attorneys, right? It’s still important, like, within your state, you’re still gonna get some business in that way. More importantly, yeah, more importantly, when somebody searches your brand, it’s your website, the site links under that, and then it’s gonna show your brand over there they can find your reviews. It’s still legitimizing your brand with all that. Being built out okay, and having all those reviews that are hopefully positive.
Steve Fretzin [25:03]
Yep, yep, okay. Got it? Well, really fantastic. Wes so many great tips and ideas. And talk about what people need to do to really get prepared for 2026 with AI and their website and their marketing, let’s talk about Wes. Big mistake. What’s up?
Wes Lungwitz [25:18]
Big mistake. I know. Where do you start? Right? I probably, from a career standpoint, I probably took a little too long to get into SEO. I was, I did some writing. I did some sports writing and journalism for a while, which was great. And the websites was posting content online was part of it. But I think I was in this, you know, publisher movement of, you know, well, we don’t know if we want to give that away. So I was kind of not into it as soon as I could have been. So once I transferred into automotive and SEO and content development that, you know, I started learning how important that was. So I guess just in life in general, I could have, at a younger age, adopted SEO faster.
Steve Fretzin [25:57]
Yeah. Sometimes we Yeah. We regret waiting too long not to pick on the lawyers listening, but sometimes lawyers wait too long to start thinking about business development or to start executing on business development and growing their individual law practice. And I don’t think the people who listen to this show are those people, because they are that lawyer. They are the people listening to the show for a reason. They’re not doing it because it’s just just good for their health. I think they’re interested in growth. They’re interested in learning, as opposed to someone who’s just going to sit at a desk and just Bill hours and crank out, you know, that, and that’s their day and their their week in their year. So, you know, get to it. You know, that’s, I think, a good, another good takeaway from today’s episode is, you know, get to it. 2026. Is in front of us. Let’s make the most of it, right? Fantastic. Let’s take a moment. Thank our wonderful sponsors. If you’re interested in hearing me talk directly about business development, marketing, how to make the most of your career, check out future rainmakers. It’s my other podcast, and I think you’ll love it. Less of an interview format, more of a direct here’s what you need to do. Here’s what’s going to help you to be successful, to be that lawyer, of course, rankings, io, love those guys. And lastly, law her podcast, check out Sonia, with that Wes people want to get in touch with you. They realize, hey, my agency sucks, or my agency is not doing the things that Wes just talked about. And boy, I sure could use a fresh set of eyes on it. What are the best digits and ways for them to reach you?
Wes Lungwitz [27:19]
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, you can check out our website is get civil. So untraditional spelling, G, E, T, it’s C, I, V, I, L, L, e.com, yeah, you know, my email is just, Wes at get civil.com love to, you know, we have, there’s a phone number on. There a lot of ways to reach out to us. So love you to check it out and be happy to audit through anybody’s site now and take a look.
Steve Fretzin [27:39]
That’s been crazy for me. This whole interview is, you know, a doppelganger, like, when people look like someone else, you have a voice doppelganger of one of my clients, Casey Grabenstein. He was on a be that lawyer live a few months ago or something, and your voices are like, spot on. So if you ever want to hear your voice doppelganger, you can go to be that lawyer live last when we did Casey Gravenstein be like, Oh my god, he stole my voice. They just thought I’d mentioned that, even the laugh. I mean, it’s like, Okay, hopefully, hopefully, that’s a good thing. I mean, it is a goal. Yeah, you guys are you guys are like, natural, like, Midwesterner, you know, twangs, or whatever we want to call it, for sure. Thanks. Wes, man, this was so wonderful. I’m so happy you came on the show. Jay McAllister, shout out to you for making the introduction. I think you knocked it out of the ballpark, my friend and you know, let’s keep in touch, because I think there’s a lot of lawyers that are in the dark and law firms that are in the dark about this stuff. And I think, you know, they’re going to let 2025 and 26 go without making the kinds of changes you’re talking about now. They’re falling behind, and they’re not getting found and getting the business. So kudos to you for getting in early and doing this and being a great guest on the show.
Wes Lungwitz [28:41]
Absolutely. Yeah, thanks for having me. I love talking about this stuff, so anytime, Steve,
Steve Fretzin [28:44]
Yeah, it’s pretty clear you’re passionate about it, and so you’re giving away a little bit. But I think, you know, at the end of the day, people are going to need your help to fix this stuff. And Hey everybody, thank you for hanging out with Wes and I, for the last 30, you know, again, I’ve got my usual page of notes, and, you know, four or five things that you know directly relate to you know how to be, and I’ve got my own website, right? So I have to be cognizant of what I’m doing in my world to get my numbers up and make sure I’m prepared for the future. So I’ve got some angry calls to make after this people that I’m dealing with. But anyway, thanks everybody. Take care. Be safe, be well, and we will talk again soon.
Narrator [29:22]
Thanks. For listening to be that loyal, life changing strategies and resources for growing a successful law practice. Visit Steve’s website, fredson.com for additional information and to stay up to date on the latest legal business development and marketing trends for more information and important links about today’s episode, check out today’s show notes.